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I'm trying to think of fights where it's more luck than skill. I guess Heroic Rhyolith in it's initial version was, but that was a pretty different fight to begin with.Quote:
I don't like the so-called dance encounters, for one simple reason...rng--introduce the dance, and the fight becomes more luck than skill.
Heroic? I wouldn't know...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bovinity
Specific fights? Ok, I purposefully wasn't going there, but whatever floats your boat...
I was thinking more in terms of having a mechanic where, in a transition, everything depends on visual/audio cues, or it's a wipe...like jumping on the threads, to go up the web, on Beth...I'm assuming it's the same on Heroic as it is on Normal...either one, if there's a half-second lag, either the tank goes up, with no heals, or the Healer beats the tank up...see what I mean? It's great that there's phases to the fight, but when split-second timing in the transition makes it a wipe--that's not skill--it's RNG.
Rhyolith...yeah...driving miss daisy isn't just a dance--it's a total gimmick...which might become fun, after many wipes...
...or not...
The tank and healer going up on beth at least on normal isn't quite so split second timing. It does require good communication between the tank and healer while at least learning the fight and having the same healer each time. Having a H pally here with taunt on their bars is really good here but a tank should be able to grab the line, go up top and pop a cd maybe 2 and survive long enough for the healer to get up top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue
RNG isn't really RNG though. The mechanic is very scripted, it's just it might pick a different target or order. It's about putting yourself in a position to be successful so when the RNG occurs, you can deal with it.
What real RNG encounters are there?
Shannox - where he throws the traps, or who Rage randomly targets before you get him targetting who you want. Not really tough
Alyz - zero RNG, at least on normal. Everything is scripted (druids come in the same order, worms, tornados, etc)
Bale - minor in which blade and the exact spot of the shards. Heroic has the run-close mechanic which is RNG, right?
Beth - Normal, nothing, except on 10 which one of the 3 spots adds come from.
Rhy - #&%(@(*&%(* Which volcano he activates, which is ALWAYS the one you just walked past it seems....
Domo - Not much. Timers for seeds. Where the orbs come. Where the cats leap. But not really bad.
Normal Rags: Where the hammer lands and who the meteors chase after being hit, but the meteors always seem to start in the middle and where the hammer lands (for intermissions and for waves) isn't hard to deal with.
*****
The difference between a 'dance' fight and a tank and spank is really just the amount of time it takes you to slow down the mechanics and turn it into a tank and spank. That's the thing I'm trying to convice my guild. We just need to slow down the fights and we'll start walking through them. It's when you react as if everything is chaos that you get get chaos.
Er...that's not random at all. It's not like they don't have control over when they go up. That's so far from random that I can only assume that you don't know what the word means.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue
In particular you can see "without method or conscious choice"...which is exactly what they're doing. They're making a conscious choice to go up.Quote:
Random: adj; Having no definite aim or purpose; not sent or guided in a particular direction; made, done, occurring, etc., without method or conscious choice; haphazard.
It's also not split-second timing...you can go up basically whenever. There's no rush or any reason at all for the tank NOT to be the first one up, followed closely by the healer.
I mean...if coordinating something THAT simple is a huge, difficult task maybe you should consider single player games...
Press the up arrow key, you can beat the tank up there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ion
K. I just had to do a lot of clean up here.
Do NOT attack each other and start sniping each other with names and arguments and senseless bulls*%t. I'm getting tired of having to moderate the same people because it's either trolling, attacking people or downright being rude.
Knock it off.
I'm with Ion here... if you're in a raid environment, there's zero reason there isn't clear and concise communication happening for fights. That means tank tells healers and upstairs group when he's going, and once he's locked and loaded, everyone should follow suit. How is this RNG at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ion
Also, to be fair, i wouldn't really count attunemen as the "entry boss" especially for 25 man raiding. Really that was HKM, and HKM was probably as complex if not more complex than ODS.
HKM was a lot more complex than ODM. 5 simultaneous tanks of varying classes, each with its own mechanics, and a hair trigger pull.
Thing that really pissed me off about HKM is that if I didn't have a fire mage with a resist set on hand for the fight, I pretty much just couldn't do it.
I think the huge unstated, impossible to calculate factor is still WHEN you did the fights. Some fights were nerfed quite heavily into being far easier then they were for the first kills. On a personal level I felt that the starter WoTLK instances (Sarth0d/Archavon/Naxx/Maly) were all tuned far lower then their BC counterparts (Kara/Gruul/Mag/SSC/TK), I also feel that because they didn't give themselves much wiggle room to make those fights easier, people blasted thru the Wrath raids far too quickly, we were pugging 25 man stuff on week 3 of wrath because we full cleared everything in two nights. With that being said, I didn't have any experience on the later Wrath raids, not the Cata raids - also while relevant (Which is the key word in my mind)
Bingo, but this was how the entire game was setup back in the day. You had to have specific sets of gear throughout fights to make things work. You had to have full shadow resist gear for initial run throughs for BT. You had to have nature/frost resist sets to do Hydross. You just farmed them and got attuned and moved on. Do people really want more fights to be stand and deliver fights? They're fun for the first 2-3 times while challenging your own personal dps maximums, but pretty soon it just becomes a joke and are often the most boring fights in a tier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reev
I think there can be a happy middle ground. I personally felt like the defile mechanic in WotLK was stupid. A ridiculously long fight and if someone stood just barely too close for the last defile it was a complete wipe, game over. GG try again.
Hey now, Hydross is one of my favorite fights of all time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ion
Yes, I know what random means--I also have a firm grasp of poignantly Offensive...
The random aspect that I was endeavoring to describe, and that seems to have been lost on the less than subtle (or even civil), is that pressing the green arrow, to go up sometimes means one goes up a second later, and giving cues on vent also has a random lag feature...therefore, designing a fight that relies on this being coordinated, without sufficient allowance for this built-in lag, is putting the fight into the realm of Luck.
And, yes, I'm aware that tanks can pop a CD, to accomodate this factor. Sometimes...;>)
And, that's what I get for succumbing to the "give examples of what you're talking about" discussion, as opposed to the, "talk about design in general terms" discussion.
Aside: Thanks, Krenian, for the effort, anyway...
Well add to it that the damn webs disappear. Took us a couple tries to realize that we needed fresh taunts to time it right. But that said a simple "I got mine" in vent solved the issues, also looking at each other and waiting to see the tank do the little "jump" onto the web. Where random really came in was distance between tank - healer on some climbs up and climbing up onto a meteor patch while facing the wrong way. For some reason, I always seem to come up with my back to the boss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue
The only real "RNG moment" I have seen at Beth'tilac (heroic or non-heroic) is when you arrive up top, and land on a burning hole in the web left by a meteor from before which promptly drops you down to the bottom again.
You have about 2 sec to run like hell off it, often in the wrong direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrea
You didn't clean up my last post, you removed it entirely; this is despite the fact it brought several points into the discussion that had nothing to do with the seemingly acceptable vitriol of other posters. Anyway, I'm done with this "community". I have no further desire to post where pseudo-intellectual cliques spend their time belittling others, or sarcastically ostracizing those who don't conform to their viewpoints.Quote:
K. I just had to do a lot of clean up here.
I am sorry that you feel like that Zellviren but to believe that you were the only one that was moderated is actually false: I altered one of your post because the offending post against you had been removed. The second one was removed entirely because of the same reason.
Nevertheless, if you do not wish to continue in your discussions here at Tankspot, then I wish you the best.
But I'm serious to everyone else in the thread. There's been a lot of sarcasm and trolling and just rude comments. I'm going to take this time and link to you guys, again, the rules and regulations when posting in the Tankspot forums. And I suggest anyone that needs a refresher course to reread em:
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...BEFORE-POSTING