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I went to World Logs looking for Holy Priests for comparisons to see where I can improve. Unfortunately, I could not find ANY Holy Priests in 10 mans and only a couple in 25 mans. I understand the desire for druids and pallys but where does that leave us priests especially when the bosses like Alysrazor and Ragnaros are dps races with most guilds using only 2 healers. Does anyone else feel the lack of love?
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...N/Holy_Priest/
Classes are only really ever out of balance if you're on the bleeding edge of progression - otherwise the CDs some classes bring over others is very nice, but the better player is still the one to bring.
WoL is a bad place to check - right now Druids have great AoE heals and their mastery works very well - so in AoE fights they put up big numbers. And then you have to look at roles within a raid - not all healers enter a raid with the same amount of damage to heal up. So take the numbers with a grain of salt. A very big grain. I wouldn't get too worked up over it.
You don't have to look for druids, just look at disc priests. Divine Aegis is that strong, it simply bypasses CoH with seven-league boots. Add a dpscooldown, a groupcooddown on top of a tankcooldown and .. well.
After all those years of working on Lightwell they haven't managed to make it worthwhile. I remember speccing into it back in Vanilla, and while now it won't break on damage and heals for a ton .. the handling still just plain sucks.
Especially on 10m you'll have to ask yourself: can you compete with other healers? Eg a druid if you specc into all renew talents? Is CoH + PoM enough for make up for Wild Growth? Quickly you'll find out that it's not, sadly.
Of course this specc work as well to a certain degree, it's not like it heals for only 50%. But the difference is big enough to swap to Disc until Blizzard get things fixed/more balanced.
Holy has some core thoughtput issues. It's sole regen comes from spirit. While a disc priest, holy paladin, restro, even shaman to a degree have ways of regen mana that aren't spirit. This leads to holy priests allocaiting 4k or so secondary stats to something that doesn't make them heal for more, it just lets them heal period. Thats far behind the others who can get plausable income just from manapool size.
TLDR: If holy got spell power from spirit it would totally help.
Like they had in Wrath, but those that giveth also taketh away :/Quote:
Originally Posted by leethaxor
I really love holy healing. I hate having to be disc on my priestling, but bubble is sooo OP when used right. Not to mention blanket shielding the raid.
I sorta agree, sorta disagree. I won't play my priest as anything except Holy. My raid group actually chose me over another healer, because I can put out numbers that aren't that far behind their very OP Druid and Paladin. They have far superior gear to me, yet I can still stay within 1-3k HPS by playing my class right and solid. I have to work my ass off to pull those numbers, but they know I will and trust that I'm what's gonna pull them through. I think it ultimately comes down to knowing how to use the various spells and mechanics of a Holy Priest to your advantage.. and if they're assigning you, as a Holy Priest, to tank heal.. then you're definitely being utilized badly. Holy Priests are 75% RAID healing, %25 TANK healing. Only on very specific fights do I tank heal.. Baleroc being one of them.
I heal as Disc; I was Holy for a lot of WoLK, but now I just can't stand it - it feels too much like a "tweener" spec; it doesn't really make it as a tank healer and it's meh to poor as a raid healer. IMO Blizz needs to decide what Holy Priests want to be when they grow up.
Interesting. We just had this same discussion on our guild forums. From my experience, holy is doing well to great in 25man - I am in a 25man raid and depending on the fight, I'm in the mid field to sometimes the top of the healing meters both in output and in total percentage healed (and yes, I know, meters are not the be-all-and-end-all for the evaluation of healing). Holy word: Sanctuary suddenly is top on stack-up phases, up to 2nd or 3rd place in my "effective healing" list on Recount. So is Echo of Lights. I throw out my slow, powerful heals and am loving every second of it.
If for any reason we go 10man for an evening, I'm miserable. Suddenly my healing is sub-par, both in hps and total amount healed. In addition to that, I'm oom all the time, which I never am in 25man, and I have WAY more overhealing due to the fact that most other classes heal faster and by the time my slow heal lands, the target is back to full health.
So yeah, some balancing is in order imo. The first thing we should all do is answer the Priest thread in Blizzard's request for class feedback on the forums. Follow the suggested format there and don't whine, stay rational and simply explain the issues. We need to all post in this thread, to make sure that the few holy priests left are heard.
In T11 I enjoyed my holy priest, I healed along side a disc priest and 3rd healer was random depending on who got on, between resto shaman, resto druid or holy paladin on 10man. I'd be up there on the HPS with them if my guild bothered with logs I'm sure I'd have ranked on most fights in T11, not sure the state right now, but holy doesn't get enough credit for what it can do when played right.
That's true, of course, but it doesn't change the facts - if you have to be an exceptional player in order to get enough healing out of a holy priest, and every other healing spec just needs very good players, then there is still an imbalance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toushiro
Elkoren. Thank you. Thank you. I have been struggling in 10mans when I get to raid. As always in relation to the druid, pally, and shammy, my numbers are a lot lower. I've read everything and tried everything and still am don't compare. I seem to shine on trash so know I can heal. At least I know there is hope in 25mans. Maybe with the LFR in patch 4.3, I will get a chance!
I currently raid as a holy/disc spec. My raid leader pretty much ignores me and lets me do my own thing so I'm often left to decide which spec I should go for which fight. Obviously Disc is the main choice of spec. In fact, that's what I use most of the time. The only time I go Holy is when the ingame mechanics match up with specific talents, namely Body and Soul. So I tend to go Holy for Shannox, Rhyolith and Ragnaros. Not sure if this helps you, but it's what I personally do.
Holy priest obsolete? Guys I cannot disagree more. Good player can rock and roll as holy, in 6/7 HC I did not find anything being undoable as holy (although in some cases i switch to disc to fill different role - like soaker healer for Beth. If we had different soaker healer, I could be second healer down or healer up - and it would have been ok too).
2 evenings training Ragnaros HC (2 healing with pally) I see I definitely want to be holy for this fight. (if i twohealed with druid/shammy/other holy, I would have switched to disc ofc)
It may be true that there are not many good holy priests - I usually end in WoL ranked even with nonideal kills which means that majority probably must have played it worse. But I do not see it as too complicated to keep up with other classes. (10 and 25 alike)
Good job ignoring pretty much everything that was said before in this thread ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by platzman
super tranq will help them be better
I think there is far too much focus on HPS output for all healing specs. While it is certainly a measure of how much work is being done, it is not at all like the throughput race that defines DPS. The true measure of a healer's skill is the success of the raid as a whole. Tanks dying because of lack of HPS is a big problem... but if they are staying up, then HPS on a per-healer basis becomes irrelevant. Logs don't show how quickly a healer saves a fire-stander or live-grips a lava swimmer or reacts to big spikes or manages his mana properly. These are the things that a holy priest has to do well... focusing on HPS takes attention away from what is important.
Also, class synergy is important for healers. Each class doing what it is best at without overlapping too much with another class's forte makes for a perfectly efficient healing group. Because there is only a fixed amount of healing to be done at any given moment, healers who focus on HPS will cause other, sometimes smarter, healers to overheal unnecessarily. Of course, overhealing is only measured when the health bar is full... not when it *would have* been full via HoT. For instance, in a 10-man with 2 healers, much raid healing can be done by sniping a HoT on dps and focusing big heals on the tanks. but if another healer doesn't see (or ignores) that I have a renew on a target and heals them anyway... who *really* overhealed? My Hot was there first and would have brought the player back to full... but a direct heal did it before the HoT could fully mature, so I get dinged with overhealing instead of him.
I'm not denying the power of disc priests, but I think they are over-hyped. The very nature of absorption means that overhealing is limited. So they can simply spam absorb spells while the other healers pick up the slack in quick-reaction scenarios and the disc priest will *appear* to have owned the charts because his HPS is higher. To counter this, the Holy priest's use of the mastery stat lends itself to large amounts of overhealing, especially when other healers are being stat whores.
My point is that stats mongering for healers is a very bad practice. It gets away from what a healer is supposed to do - use his mana pool wisely, react quickly to raid situations, and most of all keep the group alive. IMHO, the HPS stat is actually doing a lot more harm than good. I feel that Holy spec gets a bad rep because so many people focus on the wrong things. Disc is more proactive, holy is more reactive. Holy also provides extremely high burst healing output when necessary, say when another healer goes down. Having that holy priest sitting there, nursing his mana pool means that you have insurance for when the druid or pally dies. IMO a 2-healer 10-man fight benefits more from having a Holy priest than a disc one. One healer dying is less likely to mean a wipe if your Holy priest is still alive.
I love my Holy spec. I might not top the "charts", but I bet the raid will go more smoothly with me there :)
Actually read it whole, just felt I need to add some more weight on the side of "anti-whiners", no matter what I am only repeating. When someone says things like "Holy has some core thoughtput issues." it makes me a bit mad...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellóren
Holy seems just fine to me, far from obsolete and only thing I felt a bit short of - useful raid CD - seems to be adressed in 4.3. (even though I expect it to be nerfed in some way, seems too good to be true - especially in 10man).
And do you need rly good player as holy? Well you need good player as disco either. Priests just have nice toolbox and more players forget some of their tools on regular basis. Thats the challenge we love anyway, dont we? ;).
(btw.IMO lots of bad holy priests come from WOTLK mindset, but thats maybe only coincidence. Dont know why exactly priests around me were so exceptionally unadaptive - flashing until oom vs. standing and looking, but nothing between)
HPS - shows "something", but dont be addicted to it. Some best decisions for raid you can make are "anti HPS" (resting mana in some phases - e.g let the healing rain do the whole job, GSing tank so that pallys can top him sooner, Leap of faith, gonging Atramedes, replace fallen "mushroom soaker" on Majordomo...). Look for spell choices rather than HPS when judging healer.
Holy priests are very underplayed for the fact that they have had a history of being underplayed and many are not familiar with the spells and tactics of being a holy priest. I respeced my disc as a holy a little while back, and it took me many hours to get use to it. The thing is that with holy your not meant to be a tank healer your meant to be a group wide healer. Many raids have fights where there is a lot of AoE damage, this is the best place for a holy priest, but many would rather take a druid for the fact that they can battle rez someone that SiSed (Stood in Shit). Another factor that makes people stay away from specing as Holy is that others do not know how to take advantage of the holy priest in the group. The lightwell seems like a great thing to have in a raid, heals for around 20k over a few seconds, but once people see that its a clickable thing they always think you have to run to it to click it. But you dont have to get that close, it has a pretty far range on it. Another thing MANY people dont know about is Holy Word: Sanctuary, because it sparkles and its on the ground around the feet of the raiders they will run out of it thinking they are SiS and then you end up losing heals. These two things make healing as a Holy priest HARD if people dont know what they are, combine that with the fact that many dont know the difference between chakra states, they end up seeing that they have a hard time trying to get the same numbers as when they were disc and end up switching back. All in all Holy is NOT OBSOLETE, only MISUNDERSTOOD and UNDERUSED
Primary reason for Hpriest under-representation, especially in 10player, is the lack of a raid survival CD they control. For the vast majority of guilds, not having that raid CD is a big thing. LW can be that CD, but most guilds do not properly utilize it. With super DH in 4.3, that complaint will be satiated. They also lack a "heal harder" button, which in a world of SPIKE->lull->SPIKE, can be troublesome. The thing is, Holy has exceptional sustained throughput, but, again, encounters are rare in this expansion that are able to showcase it.
IMO, if we had never entered the CD race to begin with due to encounter design, holy would be the darn near the perfect spec. That is why it has gone through so few changes. The problem is, the content in cata has been built around the CD. I hope that philosophy is abandoned for 5.0, but I'll not hold my breath for it.