As threat's no longer an issue...

....Perhaps we shoud re-examine Blood Craze, Impending Victory.

I ran both tonight and felt thouroughly under impressed. Blood Craze was about 2% of the healing done on me and had only 8% overheal. Imp. Victory while i'm almost certain saved me once on Baleroc, but thats one time in a three hour raid and even with Both VR glyphs timeing it right is kinda an issue (though easily solved with some decent aura's)

Counter point: We also wiped on Baleroc at around 120k, had a DPS DC mid fight andthus have another DPS fall over as he had no one to pas the Shard too. That's not alot of DPS, and while most encounter 's aren't tuned to have people DC there's a little niggling thing in the back of my mind is saying "lot's of encounters have soft enrages once the boss hits <25% health"

Are we still feeling the need to take what are now DPS talents over Self healing talents?

if you've played a warrior in pvp before.then you'd be pretty stupid to take a dps talent over a self healing talent


for raiding i dont know though

Counter: my deep wounds did 250k on heroic Baleroc tonight, thus could have granted you the kill ;)

I still see no use in Blood Craze, it just ticks for to less to make a real difference and would be healed the next second anyways. I tried it on Ragnaros heroic the other night (18 minutes of constant incoming damage) and just wasn't impressed at all. Leaving me with IV.. if they'd change it to be used all the time we could finally start helping on our own survival as it's mentioned in the bluepost these days but until then i just don't feel like about one minute of executing would be totally different with me weaving in 10k-ish heals on an unreliable base.

Deep wounds still contributes noticeable to our overall rdps, 0.5% of our total raid's damage done isn't to shabby imho.

I'ld be more interested in finally dropping Imp Revenge, as I won't be needing the rage efficiency anymore (auto-attack should probably hold over most pug DPS anyway) and if it's AoE, it's just a wee DPS bonus, isn't it?

Would atleast save me a button on my main action bar (means I can put Slam on there again, yay!!)

So my personal debate would be Gag Order vs IV or HR (which I don't use a lot, as I don't SB as much as I should ideally)
Oh well, there is always Second Wind, then I can PvP at the same time!!

Edit: Gah, can't take Second Wind, but you could grab something like this: http://wowtal.com/#k=_A7PL0WW.b0w.warrior.Rjla7g

My current leaning is to Thst spec cept Forgoing Thunderstruck for Imp. Rev, Granted we no longer Need Rage efficiency for threat, but with the damage nerfs to the earlier encounters, i'm feeling the pinch, i'm in no dange of losing threat so i'm thinking i might aswell attempt decent DPS.

I would say that BC and IV are still relatively useless, i don't think the heals they provide will make up for the time you could have shaved off the fight if you had favored DPS oriented talents. I'm not saying stick a sheild on a fury warrior and call it a tank, but little things over a 15 minuet boss fight = big things.

I picked up IV for the heck of it (dropped Imp Rev for it) as it's kinda useful for me (heroics, alt runs that really aren't always that great,...) but I definately would not pick up BC, not even over Gag Order, it's simply that useless. It does <2% healing of what a single healer does on you and barely hits 3% of a healer on AoE tanking.

Yeah, if you're just doing heroics it's an Ok talent i guess, though it should still be unescacary to have to heal yourself towards the end of fight to save a healers mana. What it's really good for is if you want to be a FC in a BG, then yeah, self heals are always nice, otherwise though i'd stick a fat "comodity" sticker on it.

It is a commodity, but for me, the choices are:
* Imp Rev: which only works as a minor Cleave effect & is imho not worth spending talent points in just to bring it up to Dev levels
* Heavy Repurcussions: Don't like having to use SB as offensive cooldown. don't need the threat and prefer to keep it as minor CD rather than spam it on the cooldown
* Cruelty: Lackluster talent untill I get 2pT12 atleast.
* Blood Craze: As useful as a health pot in a 25man raid boss fight

WT, I am baffled you would say something like this about HR. There is hardly a fight where you want to delay SB by any longer that 10-15 seconds. On a "normal" encounter SS comes to 20% of your dmg with 25% uptime. Ignoring the threat now it is still 4% of your dmg coming directly from this talent.

Cruelty, lackluster or not, we are not even worried about our floors and ceilings any more as long as the avg is higher.

yeah, as you said (at least i think you were leaning towards this point) you're not raiding so you don't have to favor pulling some weight in DPS. IDK though, i just don't see the point in having it when you shouldn't need it. Unless you have bad luck with shit healers. Though in all honesty, i wish it was a nescacary talent. Revamped a bit, but trying to do max DPS with a 1h weapon and a sheild while avoiding fire is getting old. I really wish managing defensive abilities was our rotation as aposed to doing things to make mobs angry at us.

Here's a question though, can we get rid of Incite? I run without it a lot of the time, and i would love to permanantly ditch it. Still use HS in rotation, but in my experience, with a solid rotation and understanding of abilities and when it's optimal to use them, i don't need those points in Incite and i would love to spend them on "comoditys"

I know HR is useful, but I just don't LIKE having it and honestly, I can afford to pick Gag Order over it in the content my Warrior does atm. As I occassionally just do T11 normals with him, I honestly just SB every big hit most people used to CD for, because that's all you need nowadays, especially with the gear you can get from Valor Points. Heck, I still use 3/3 Shield Spec (which actually starts to become useful in heroics now that I'm out of my blues)
I'm fully aware of the pure DPS gain from HR & Cruelty, but as I said, for me they are choices. I can afford to do what I do atm without them and the talents I chose instead give me QoL, which is always nice if you're just farming the CtA bag for mounts for your main :P

Edit: Yeah Greg, I occasionally get healers that AFK, d/c or generally do typical PuG stuff like standing in fires. More so, because I run the older dungeons for the bag (done slightly faster so better bag:time ratio & finish my VP cap if needed by doing goild Zan runs) and a large amount of healers in there actually struggle in there due to gear.

LOL, the bag.... Blizz's failed attempt to get wimps to tank dungeons. I think they forgot the reason Tanks get the instant Que: cause if everbody had it in them to successfully run a tank, there wouldn't have been the problem in the first place. But yeah, i get what you're saying, though by doing old content you subject yourself to lower gear players as aposed to doing Zans where you're more likely to find people who are just getting in a few heroics befor the cap their valor in raids. But also jsut as likely to find people who think green is a nice color to stand in.... where the lesser of 2 evils is here i don't know.

Mostly I got tired of Zan pugs being elitist pricks.
I once honestly got kicked for being a "stamina stacker" and "getting hit too hard" although I had 5 ilvl more than when I first cleared that instance and well ... if the first mob is doing too much dmg on your tank, it's an interrupt issue, not a tanking one.

PS: I do have some extra sta gems because as I do mostly older content, my damage reduction is more than enough for any appropriately geared healer and I can't yet hit passive unhittable in my current gear, so not that big of a gain stacking more mastery.

Oh, yeah, the elitist pricks can be annoying. I have plenty experience dealing with DPS who "could have been done with this dungeon 20 minuets ago and we're barely on the 3rd boss!" LOL, but hit to hard by a mob who does mostly nature damage? (if memory serves correctly)

hmm, so do you have Incite in your talent tree?

Yeah, I do have Incite, I guess I could drop it for something else, but really doesn't matter much to me atm. I use Incite on the same targets where I actually care about SS more than filling in between thunderclaps and that's bosses, which do give me enough rage to press HS enough to make Incite somewhat worth it.

Also, on that mob the healer was actually AFK and my extra HP pretty much prevented me from dying. Irony FTW.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gregasaurous

can we get rid of Incite?

---

being that you should still be aiming to kill bosses as quickly as possible, and most boss fights have large phases of being of single target, and that HS should be your single largest source of damage, No.

No.

Just really No.


Like a "can we wear cloth when tanking" kind of a No.

If you had rage issues then yeah, or if all you did was multi target tanking then yeah, but on any single target progression tier content you should be using Heroic strike a truckload. Point for point it worth more than Sword and board.

Yeah, as from the point of view that tanks are just nerfed DPSers these days it is a important ability, but certainly not compareable to wearing cloth. And rage issues are nonexistant for everybody. (at least they should be) With the exception of a one or two boss fights maybe.