Warrior Tank needing Threat help

Right now I’ve got a damage mitigation talent build. When we started raiding I didn’t have the issue holding agro unless I screwed up on my rotation. When I got that down I had no issues with threat until the last few weeks. But as the raid team has geared up the issue now is not keeping me alive but keeping others from pulling agro. I’ve read through the guides before and re-read through things tonight and I believe I have my rotation down. So what do I need to do to keep agro? Is it normal that as the team progresses that holding agro becomes an issue? Is there a Threat based tanking spec out there? Should I re-forge, enchant, gem my items to get more hit and expertise?
Link to my character: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../zeffin/simple


Thanks for any advice people can give me.
Zeffin

2 things can cause this.

It depends which of the following is the problem:
If you have problems after 30~ seconds in the fight, when your vengance has gone up to 8k~ AP or more, you're not having your rotation right, even tho you think you do. A quick search on the forums here would solve it.

If you're having problems on the pull, it's the same thing most warriors see. My recomandations for it would be:
1) Always go into berserker stance, pre-use recklessness before charging in.
2) Use Shield Block early, with 2/3 or 3/3 into shield mastery, you should have enough rage to use Inner Rage early on. A good start would be something along these lines:
PRE-PULL:
Go Berserk stance, use recklessness [and if REALLY struggling with brust threat, this is also the place to pop a 1200 str pot].
Move back to defensive stance, pull with a heroic throw and charge in.
Pop shield block and shield slam the target, following with a shockwave and inner rage.
Spam devastate untill shield slam procs or off CD. Spam HC strike all the time [with shield black up, rage should permit it, unless it's some slow hitting mob like magmaw].

If you still have trouble with brust threat after using it all, you might reconsider getting your hit around 2-3%, just to make sure that your 1st 2-3 attacks land. Don't bother going higher then that, really.

EDIT:
OT:
Looking at your talent tree, I'd suggest you lose the 3/3 blood craze. You can look up the discussion on these forums, but tbh, it's usless. I'd suggest you pop 3/3 into war academy, as with the recent buff and the way things work - the buff to devestate makes it better then revange with imp. revange 2/2. The only reason to use revange nowdays is in aoe situations. Another talent you'd prolly want to have half full is Cruelty. If I were you, I'd also lose the gag order - even tho it does come handy in some trash cases. I'd also look into getting Impeding Victory - it's not a life saver, but can contribute way more healing the Blood Crazy with even a single proc - and it usually procs much more.

Zef, there really isn't a 'mitigation' talent build. You have enough points that you should have all the mitigation talents with whatever build you have. I will build on what Nehama said.

Arms: 3/3 War Academy + 2/2 Field Dressing + 3/3 Deep Wounds (Deep wounds is the most threat per talent point of any talent except maybe the 2 points in Heavy Repurcussions).

With 3/3 in deep wounds, you have 5 talent points free to spend:
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LZZIcGzRRo0b

In this build (no points in Arms yet as there aren't 31 in prot yet), You'll see there are 17 points left. 8 go into Arms, leaving 9. 3 go into Sword and Board and 1 into Shockwave, leaving 5.

For those last 5 points you have really 5 options:
Cruelty - 2/2 - in the Fury tree (10% buff to shield slam crit chance)
Blood and Thunder 2/2 - TC applies rend to all mobs in range if one already has rend ticking.
Thunderstruck 2/2 - TC buffs rend and shockwave and cleave.
Gag Order 2/2 - Silences target of pummel hits and reduces HT CD
Vigilance 1/1 - gain up to 40% of your vengence from your target, when your target is hit, taunt refreshes.

So that's 9 talent points and 5 points left. How you apply them is more a playstyle choice.

I prefer 2/2 B+T, 2/2 Cruelty and 1/1 Vigilance - Though vigilance is really only a raid tool during 2 tank fights. For solo tank fights and heroics, it doesn't give you anything.

If you choose B+T or Gag Order you are looking for 100% of the effect, so you want 2/2 in those. 1/2 in either leave it 50/50 if it works.

***

Something like 3/3 Deep wounds, 2/2 cruelty, and 2/2 in Thunderstruck will give you the best single target aggro.
Something like 2/2 Thunderstuck + 2/2 B+T + 3/3 deepwounds will give you the best AoE.

***

You haven't given us your ability priority system, so I'll go into that a little later... but as to your original question:

From everything I've heard and experienced, it does become a problem to hold aggro in the first 30 seconds of a fight when doing hard modes because you need every ounce of DPS to beat the enrage timers. However if your group is as geared as you, you shouldn't have a problem with the enrage timers, so you're looking more at people being smart and watching their own threat. The reports from Hard Mode tanks though is once you get past the first 30 seconds, aggro isn't an issue.

Redoing your talent tree will help.

Also, I'm going to assume we're looking single target here:

As an opener, something like:
Charge + Shield Block ->
Shield Slam ->
Concussion Blow ->
Rend/Revenge

Will give you the biggest bang for the buck at the beginning of the pull. Shockwave, when you hit about 40% vengence will become better than anything but shield slam or concussion blow, so you'll want to use Concussion Blow and Shockwave on CD unless you can SS (and then, usually only if you can hit SB and then SS).

Look for a post by Wartotem - he as a great spreadsheet that will help you understand the threat values of different abilities.

A few other hints:

A) Pre-pot with a golem's blood potion for ~20 seconds (after the charge) of extra strength and thus attack power.
B) Pop Battle Stance and Retaliation before switching back into Defensive and charging.

There are basically 3 scenarios, and I'm not sure which applies:

A) You're having trouble holding aggro after 30 seconds <--- It's probably you
B) You're having trouble with aggro in the first 10 seconds and you're right against the enrage time <--expertise is your friend here
C) You're having trouble with aggro in the first 10 seconds and you're comfortably ahead of the enrage time <-- DPS needs to slow down in the beginning.

Vengence takes a bit to stack. DPS should understand this by now.

If you do end up going the hit/expertise route... Remember this... Exp >>>>> Hit.

4 expertise = 1% dodge AND 1% parry reduction -> This costs ~121 rating.
1% hit = ~121 rating.

So for the same amount of rating, expertise, until you have 26 expertise (whether through rating or food or racials) is 2x as beneficial as hit and you don't need hit anymore since your interrupts are guaranteed to land.

I'll look to make those talent changes.

The issue really is the first part of the fight. Although with both Magmaw and Atramedes, I'll get behind when the head comes down or when he flies in the air. I think vengeance is falling off because I'm not taking damage.

My rotation is Heroic Throw, Charge, Shield Slam (with Blockpopped), Concussion Blow, Revenge, Rend, Devastate. As Rend drops to around 6 seconds I pop TC,as higher priority over everything but Shield Slam, I’ll also throw Shockwaveup if revenge or Shield Slam aren’t ready to use. Most fights I just use Block to increasedamage with Shield Slam. There are a fewtimes like Halfus where I might save block for when my debuff stacks get high.
Also is there a vengeance add on that makes it easier to see where you are with it?

I'll experiment with the Retaliation and Recklessness ideas. Sounds like a bit of stance dancing might be required on those. I'd love some macros to help with that if anyone has any. Otherwise I'll likely make some for them.

Thanks for the information and please more advice is always welcome.

Zeffin

Also should I remove revenge now from my roation? And the glyphs that work for sunder armor do they work with Devastate as well?

Thanks,

Zeffin

I'd be heistant to use recklessness, especially if you're working into hard modes. 20% increase in damage taken is a pretty heafty cost.

I wouldn't drop revenge. But to be safe, download Wartotem's spreadsheet (search for a post of his, it's linked in his sig, or follow the link in my sig, it's a link at the bottom) to see if it's a TPS win. I think it's always above devastate, but I could be wrong, I don't think 4.1 changed this (?).

Don't forget about using Conc Blow too. I think at full vengence, the priority is something like this:
SS w/ SB up > Conc Blow > Shockwave > SS normal. The last two might flight, and thunderstruck might have something to say with it if you use it.

Also, pre-pot Golem's Blood.

****

You shouldn't have any problem with Magmaw since Magmaw and Magmaw's exposed head have 2 seperate threat tables, or am I mistaken there? THe big thing for that one is tab-target Magmaw while being mangled and taunt so you're back at top while still inside (unless this has been changed).

If you're having trouble with Atramedes air phase, I wonder if you're not using heroic strike enough? With 3/3 Incite + Deep wounds, HS actually comes out around or above Devastate I think (?). I'd really stress 3/3 in deep wounds. That may fix a lot of your issues (every crit hits for 48% of it's damage again spread over 6 seconds). It's just that good.

Test the Deep wounds build.

Also -> TC at 6 seconds is a waste. TC at 3 or fewer seconds. If you TC at 6, you lose 1 tick, so it's sub-optimal. If you wait until there are 3 or fewer seconds, the duration is added to the refresh (so 18 seconds of ticks instead of 15). Don't worry if it expires, just reapply the next time you don't have a SS/ConBlow/SW up.

Look up the theory forums - Revange has been proved to give less TPS AND DPS then devestate with 3/3 war academy. That being said, that's on single target. The only cases you should use revange is AoE situations [assuming it has 1/2 or 2/2 imp. revange] and when you're REALLY low on rage [since it's rage-dps ratio is actually insanly good. You lose some DPS/TPS on using it on a single target, but you build up rage with that - allowing you to spam more HS, thus ending up gaining TPS/DPS]. HS does come as 2nd best after SS as spamable ability, but that depends on your vengence level and I think it also depends on the rest of your gear. Basicly, it shouldn't come as a question, since you should hit HS all the time.

As far as Recklessness - I can't say I have used it in EVERY hardmode, not yet. Haven't got that far. I can assure you tho, that even in heavy damage starting fights such as Helfus hc, I've found it VERY usfull to pop on begining - while it's up, I also use shield block and the damage comes out pretty much even. You can't even begin to imagen the amount of crits that go there with recklessness tho. The more tragets you have, the more crits you'll get. I have to admit I almost never use Retaliation - it's a much less noticed threat boost and it does require you to dance out of defansive stance. Berserk stance you don't feel at the begining of a pull, as you're suppost to pre-use the recklessness before the pull. As for macroes, I just do it manually - since I don't use my zerker stance. Just put 1 as recklessness, 2 as defansive mode. Simple hit your 2 keybinds for it and it'll go.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nehama

Revange has been proved to give less TPS AND DPS then devestate with 3/3 war academy. That being said, that's on single target.

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That's not entirely true; Dev is still slightly behind Revenge if you take 2/2 imp revenge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Loganisis

every crit hits for 48% of it's damage again spread over 6 seconds

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Reread the talent, no longer does damage based on crit size. That is why SMF warriors only put 2 points, literally nothing else to get, pretty weak with 1 handers, especially for tanks. More so since the uptime for a tank is between 15-20% on most boss fights.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tengenstein

That's not entirely true; Dev is still slightly behind Revenge if you take 2/2 imp revenge.

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Yes. And revenge's rage cost is practically zero.

Extra damage from recklessness is a non issues at all. Its actually a plus, you get more rage.

ps Also, at full vengeance.. don't use CB, unless its a swap fight :) It does like no dmg.

i read all the stuff what is in here and I made this tree http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...lent/secondary
what do you guys think of it? it's supposed to be a treath holding tree

Really depends if you mean aoe threat or boss threat. If you want boss threat, I would take a point from Safeguard and the 2 points out of Thunderstruck or Blood and Thunder, probably Blood and Thunder if a strictly single target spec. Put those into 2/2 cruelty and finish deep wounds. Which brings you to an 8/2/31. I am very iffy on Deep Wounds, but Loganisis is so fanatical about it, and I can't find anything else around that repeat his claims, so I will be doing some testing on a deep wounds build for a couple days. Will update with what I find.

I will repeat Loganisis claims. He's not fanatical. He's just right. Here is last weeks V&T kill;
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=8249&e=8625

Deep Wounds(3/3) makes up 4.9% of my total damage. SInce my crits do 200% damaage we can treat +x% crit to abilites as a pretty much a straight % damage increase (Crueelty bing +10% crit to SS, is roughly a straight +10% SS damage.

in my case that would mean that cruetly(2/2) is about a 1.5% total damage increase. so point for point Deep wounds is twice as good as cruety

5% increased damage =/= 5% threat.

Most of our tanking skills have bonus threat. So if 10% SS crit = 10% increased damage it is > or =10% threat on shield slam.

Bleeds are 1 for 1 damage to threat.

Also, why would you get a talent that does a bleed on crit and not get a 10% crit buff on SS? They are not mutually exclusive, and they synergize.

Edit: Also looks like you picked your single highest Deep Wounds fight besides when you went arms. Your average is much closer to 3.5% on bosses, not the 5% you had on that single boss downing.

Um SS raw threat is 231 Revenge's baked in threat is 7, HS's is 28 and Cleaves is 30. all kinda marginal. My 16k so ~98% of its threat was from its damage. Criting an SS doesn't actually increase the amount of baked in threat, its still Damage+x*3 you simply made the damage portion bigger when you crit. So yes Cruelty is pretty much a straight 10% increase to ss threat (well its slightly less becuase the 10% crit isn't affecting ~2% of the total threat thats baked in so its more like 9.8% increase to SS threat). So to answer your questions 10% increase to SS damage is actually <10% increase to SS threat.

If you select boss only segments its actually 4.3% of my damage across the boss fights, however V&T is the only real fight where i get to properly do my stuff, on Mal i'm kiting adds, on magmaw i'm kiting adds, on Chimaeron i'm trying not to steal aggro, on TAC i'm holding back to keep DPS balanced, Omintron I'm generally spending alot of the fight Not attacking becuase i don't like triggering shields, and Halfus has freaky damage modifyers. V&T is single target 100% on target, no extra damage modiyers and no watching threat to not screw over taunts, and actually hits ahrd enought to make use of all your abilities. So yes Of course its the highest fight. It's the only fight where all i have to do to is tank, not do fight mechanics. which is exactly what makes it perfect as an example of the maths. However if you do look at the majority of boss fights 10% of my SS damage is <less than deep wounds total damage. the only real exception is chimaeron where the timing of taunts and having aggro at the right time is crucial, so significant portions of the fight tanks are holding back

I am by no means saying don't grab both if you can if you just want a single target threat build, you don't need the extra points in BnT or Thunderstruck, but not everyone has the luxury of having 2 prot builds nor being able to redo a spec mid raid, so we have to make compromises, and unfortunatley in a Jack of all trades spec cruelty just isn't as good point for point as deep wounds as it's is only really good in single target. Deep wounds is better in single target, and better in AoE. You can be iffy on it, but i would check something Like Rawr or WarTotem's Spreadsheet before you call someone "fanatical".

Deep Wounds is point for point the best TPS choice. RAWR shows this. Wartotem's spreadsheet shows this. I'm not making this up.

DW is very solid DPS. And DPS is a valid form of mitigation.

I am running both DW and Cruetly for most fights anyway.