Warrior tank trouble stat weights

Hey everyone,
I am not very good with maths and spreadsheets so I'm having difficulty understanding some things.
To begin, I wanted to optimize my stats (via reforging, gemming) of my current gear, however I'm getting mixed messages and would appreciate any clarification.
I started off with this graph, I think it's simple:
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/118/graph3t.jpg

My Mastery is: 2448, Total avoidance rating: 3211, so I reforged to a parry:dodge ratio of ~1.24 thinking that was the way to go.
However...I then input my stats into a warrior spread sheet created by someone else
(https://spreadsheets0.google.com/ccc...MyAlZgP#gid=21)
which tells me reforge 80 dodge to parry, which throws my P: D ratio to ~1.37.
So finally I looked around a little more at this graph: http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/623...odgerating.png
which only made me more confused, indicating to me, my P: D ratio needed to be even lower. ><
Basically, I just wanted to find out what I should balance my master/avoidance to (if you need armory it's :http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...erune/advanced .
Sorry for the maths illiteracy, any help would be great thank you!
Riverune.

You want as much mastery as possible (reforge your parry to mastery on your panties!) and after that you want slightly higher (+2-3%) parry chance thanks to the hold the line talent, all above that is questionable due to the impact of DR.

then wouldn't I reforge dodge to mastery on my legs?
edit: never mind, I see why xD then I lose 0.01% avoidance.

Your stat priorities go Mastery>Parry>Dodge as a warrior. Parry can be ~4% higher than dodge and still be better, mastery can be as high as you want.

Thanks for the help ^^ , now would anyone be able to help me figure out why I am getting confused and mixed messages with the graphs and spread sheets I linked?

I would think due to the basic fact that most of these are created by different people, and theres alot of people with different views on stats. I would not trust any graphs atm. Melvar could not have put it better. Only real option is whether to gem mastery or stam... :) a subject of ongoing disscussion.

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Originally Posted by Leverage

Only real option is whether to gem mastery or stam... :) a subject of ongoing disscussion.

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There are several things that aren't set in stone yet for our lovely warriors:
- gem for mastery over stam
- trinket choice (avoidance, mastery or stam)
- reforge for expertise on heroic progression (sacrificing up to 4% avoidance for the important snap aggro, especially on 10m without tricks or md)
- flask (at least after 4.1 with another +150 stamina bump) over two elixir
- saving shieldblock or using it on cooldown (considering the huge 4.1 changes)

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Originally Posted by klausi

- reforge for expertise on heroic progression (sacrificing up to 4% avoidance for the important snap aggro, especially on 10m without tricks or md)
- flask (at least after 4.1 with another +150 stamina bump) over two elixir
- saving shieldblock or using it on cooldown (considering the huge 4.1 changes)

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I have not heard of tanks doing any of these things in current raiding. If you have the threads/source for these statements handy please link them. I doubt i could justify saving shield block, or reforging for exp, but i would still like to read about it a bit. The elixir comment really surprised me, i have flasked for stam since cata and would not even think of doing otherwise.

I also flask for stamina over the elixir combo, but that's mostly because my guild has a lot of inexperienced raiders who wipe the raid often to simple things and we're still trying to teach them. /sigh

Amen ^^ I cant imagine the cost of using elixir combos on hardmode progression.

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Originally Posted by Leverage

I have not heard of tanks doing any of these things in current raiding.

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Then you just didn't follow all the topics on raid progression of those famous tanks like Sco, Xav, Kungen and so on.

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Originally Posted by Leverage

I doubt i could justify saving shield block

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There a lot of situations when you want to either delay it (eg Atramedes/Valiona starts to breath soon) or just saving it up for huge burst moments (Cho'gall heroic during Flaming Destructions, especially after the reflect stealth nerf) and there will be even more situations after 4.1 considering the magical damage reduction component - think of Nefarian heroic and electrocute/breath. On 10m you'll be out of cooldowns every so often and closing that gap is huge.

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Originally Posted by Leverage

The elixir comment really surprised me, i have flasked for stam since cata and would not even think of doing otherwise.

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Sorry but no serious progression tank bothers using an underbudgeted stamina flask. And even after the bump to 450 stamina with 4.1 it's only okayish for farm encounter.

Prismatic elixir on heroic magical burst fights like Omnotron pre nerf, Maloriak (maintanking), Nefarian or Cho'gall is just way to good to pass up - especially for us warrior brethren with the lack of magical defense. And you shouldn't forget about the increased block chance via +225 mastery as well.

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Originally Posted by Leverage

Amen ^^ I cant imagine the cost of using elixir combos on hardmode progression.

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Progression raiding is not about gold, it's about .. progress *haha*. I gulped roughly 80 elixir every progress night and if the tactic was set in stone 1 golemblood prepot and 1 earthen potion during burst phases. Finally killing the boss was rewarding enough :)

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Originally Posted by Leverage

or reforging for exp, but i would still like to read about it a bit.

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I've raided a lot of 10m heroic lately due to lineup issues with our 25m and without tricks/md i've some serious issues with initial aggro while everyone is prepotting and popping wings/deathwish right away. Or take a look on Council hc, you'll have to get snap aggro three times in a row with a tight enrage timer - in between vengeance decaying rather quickly - and while positioning the bosses over and over again.

Sacrificing up to 4% avoidance while still at 85%+ ctc isn't that bad as it sounds. And you don't have to use that gear on every fight, there are some pieces you can use just for this purpose exclusively (after you picked up a different/better one): Maloriak helmet, Nefarian shoulders, Council gloves, Chimaeron boots, VP cloak, Ramkahen bracer just to name a few.

^ Agree totaly.

Nothing personal, but its hard to trust your views on subjects when you refuse to link a toon in your profile. You could be not even raiding current content for all i know.

Elixirs are cheaper than flasks on my server. I'm not a hardcore raider or anything but on progression fights I probably go through at most 10 each mastery/deep earth or prismatic on a 2 and a half hour night. The flask isn't that great imo. it's what, a little over 3k health? 90 mastery and 90 magic res just feels better to me imo.

If you read around most of the topics on this board, especially those regarding threat, what Klausi is saying is true. It's pretty much a common theme around here (ie. go stam/threat on heroic modes).

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Nothing personal, but its hard to trust your views on subjects when you refuse to link a toon in your profile. You could be not even raiding current content for all i know.

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Except for the fact that they are correct in what they are saying.

To build on what Klausi said about 85% versus 89% dodge/parry/block/boss miss... Obviously you'll take a few more unblocked hits, but the chance of the string of unblocked hits isn't very different...

@85% = .15 * .15 = .0225 or 2.25% chance of 2 unblocked attacks in a row.
@89% = .11 * .11 = .0121 or 1.21% chance of 2 unblocked attacks in a row.

That 4% difference does almost double the chance, but it's still a 1 in 40ish chance. And if you need the extra aggro because you're just at the enrage timer, it's all about balancing for the raid.

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Most progression tanks do double elixer - the reason is you get more 'stuff' out of elixers. Blizz purposely changed this in Cata so instead of 2 elixers = 1 flask as it was in WotLK, the budget of 2 elixers > 1 flask in Cata. This is true across the board. And elixors give you far more flexability in how you set up for a specific fight.

If you overgear/have a fight on farm (functionally equivalent, the only difference is raid execution), then you don't really need the extra budget and if wipes are common place (such as groups that overgear but can't down the boss) a flask is probably better. But if you're pushing content, the extra budge from elixers wins out.

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Why couldn't you justify saving shield block as a magic damage CD in 4.1? Even for tanks that reforge into expertise, it's for burst aggro at the start, not continued aggro mid-fight. So once you have aggro, SB is nice to smooth damage even further, but isn't necessary for aggro, and if you have a big burst of magic damage coming in, a 30 sec CD is far more attractive than a 2 or 3 or 4 minute CD.

Whether SB will be saved to be used as a defensive CD in a fight is going to depend largely on the mechanics of the fight itself.

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I'm not at HMs yet (for a number of reasons - hopefully the next week or 2) but even without being there - everything that's been said makes perfect sense.
* 2x elixir budget > 1x flask budget
* Surv trade off for better inital aggro is worth it if the DPS is right at the enrage timer
* SB, in 4.1, will be a situational defensive CD
* Cost isn't a factor in progression raiding... well it is, but it's an understood cost - you are accepting that cost to progress as rapidly as possible.


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But again, a lot of this is what is your guild's goal and production. It is more acceptable for a more casually progressing guild to go with flasks > elixirs, etc, etc... But that's because a progression raiding guild is going in there with considerablly less gear. It's hard to call yourself a true progression raiding guild if your raiding group is optimizing for fights you don't have on farm. It doesn't matter what level you're running - if you're pushing a fight and not optimizing, and not just you, the tank, but the entire raid, the group isn't really dedicated to pushing content as it is in completing content.

Not a bad thing, it's just a matter of what your guild's goals and preferences are.

In one hour of wiping to a heroic boss, we might get in a maximum of 7 attempts. 14 elixirs, or 28 herbs per hour. It's very easy to farm up that quantity, especially when 3/4 of those herbs are the easily obtainable heart blossom or cinderbloom. I can pick up something like 80-100 heart blossom in one hour, and 40 jasmine in half an hour. So for 1.5 hours' worth of farming, I get 40 elixirs, or almost 6 hours worth of wiping over and over. Or you could buy them off the AH. Not that expensive.

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Originally Posted by MellvarTank

Except for the fact that they are correct in what they are saying.
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I never said he was right or wrong...and if you read my first comment you can see i was merely seeking a redirect to read up these subjects that i knew little about. I would feel sorry for anyone that takes 1 random forum statement as fact and fails to further research it.

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I never said he was right or wrong...

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Nothing personal, but its hard to trust your views on subjects when you refuse to link a toon in your profile. You could be not even raiding current content for all i know.

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I could link any toon I want on my profile. Say, did you know I was Xav? Now I'm Kungen! Check me out, I'm Theck!

A toon link isn't worth beans, the bottom line is that if 4 people confirm it, then it is likely confirmed. You could always try to search function as well, it's located top right. Most, if not all, topics have been covered in one form or another.

Make that 5 people, Mellvar :)

Also, you don't need to have a top raiding tank to know the math, that's what makes any science so great!! It helps for gathering data, but getting data from another source can be just as good (and is actually more reliable in the long run). In fact, nearly all of the Cata testing I did for my spreadsheet (see sig) was done by a Warrior in my guild, usually with me just standing around on my Shaman with my nose in the combat log.