Hardmodes - Value of PH/Safeguard?

So I bit the bullet and app'd and was accepted into a top10 raiding guild on the server. I've been looking into their preferred talent builds and I'm a little confused.

Now, I've only done regular with kills up to Cho'Gal (and seen that fight) and Magmaw. I've seen ODS and Conclave as well. But, this means I haven't experieced several of the fights and the ones I have, have been normals.

So I'm not going to argue with them - they've seen a need for the abilities - I just want to know what need? I need to understand the value better.

Their AoE/Adds spec includes PH. This confuses me because I don't see a lot of value to PH unless you're going to solo-kite the Magmaw adds. Otherwise how does a slow really help you all that much (even if it is spammable)? If adds have to die and you're kiting slowed adds, it seems that you're asking for threat issues. On hardmodes, or I guess even regualrs I haven't seen - what is the value of PH?

The other talent is Safeguard. Which I understand if you're not going to do taunt swaps, but if you're going to do taunt swaps, how valuable is it?

I don't want to be the new guy that says "I've got a better way for fights and difficulties I've never actually attempted before", I'd rather understand why they value these abilities when my experience to date has made these not very desirable talents?

PH has value on any fight that adds don't die. If you are kiting adds on heroic conclave, you want the slow. If they get in range you die, etc. Safeguard is on the fence. It's free damage reduction on the main tank if necessary, but also a threat drop. I've had issues with that before, so you have to know when to use it.

Both have their places, if you are apping to a guild, run 2 prot specs one with PH and one without. If you find you need it, then you'll have it and if you find you don't need it, then you can quickly spec out of it. For safeguard, ask them why they want it and how often they expect you to use it. It can be incorporated into a spec easily.

PH is very useful for kiting adds on Maloriak (when 9 adds are up, it hurts quite a bit so it's easier to just kite) and Nef phase 3 (I've never done it altho that's what I read in some strats).

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Nef phase 3

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On normal mode this is actually detrimental I've found, as it's not so much a 'kite' the adds, as a 'move them when you need to'. Haven't done HM yet, as far as I know that is a different story.

I find both to be very useful in multiple Hardmodes.

Uses for PH in Hardmodes:

Adds on Magmaw or Conclave (though i've found DK's to be much better suited for this because of DnD)
As Veldine pointed out, Maloriak adds in a pinch (I can't even count how many times somebody has missed an add interrupt and we end up with adds when we don't want them)
Nef Phase 3 - I generally have no problem keeping them permaslowed and never being hit on normal. In heroic I have found that it is slightly less useful, as you can control the fire spread better by only moving them when you have to.
Omnotron - When tanking Toxitron its nice to be able to toss out a quick PH when the adds spawn in case your huntard is either dead or just misplaced his trap.

I take safeguard in combination with my kiting spec usually as there really isnt a reason not to (Incite is kinda worthless while kiting).

Uses for Safeguard:

Nef Heroic - It is huge in phase 1. After your adds are dead, you can use it either on the healers for the ony tank during electrocutes as they will not be inside any barriers and also subject to Onys tail lash, or on people who are just coming out of MC as an electrocute goes off. In phase 2 I also find it is nice to use on the person who gets cinders right before they jump off.
Omnotron Heroic - Use it on the person who gets flamethrower

Otherwise I just use it at my discretion.

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Originally Posted by IgnusFatus

As Veldine pointed out, Maloriak adds in a pinch (I can't even count how many times somebody has missed an add interrupt and we end up with adds when we don't want them)

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Depends on your raid size, on 10 you want as much spawns as possible because you'll have to stop dps for at least 2-3 minutes anyways and kill the adds during this time. No kiting required, no PH needed. For 25s you'll have 4-5 adds on your side, adding another 1-2 before the green phase won't kill you thanks to your defensive cooldowns and a shockwave/leap combo - and there enough players around who can help you out with slow if somebody messes up on interrupts.

Magmaw - you really don't need any kind of slow for those Larvae. Have a hunter pick SV specc and nuke them to hell or use a dk/mage for this job
Conclave - they are kited from mage, hunter or a dk at range, 15y is to less - you gonna die to the stacks occasionally and can't reset them with an AMS if you screwed up
Nef - i tank them for almost 7 minutes, i don't want any slow at all to pull them quickly when i want to.
Omnotron - only if you happen to pick him up and hunter aren't the only class with a reliable aoe slow (rogue, mage, frost dk, owl, shaman)

I'd recommend getting a deep wounds specc (8/2/31) and either hearthstone -> respecc for certain encounter when you really need PH or get an aoe/utility specc as second choice. Wasting 4 points on PH and another 2 on safeguard and almost never using it sucks with our bloated talent trees. Especially for 10s without tricks/md i want all the aggro increasing talents i can get my hands on.

Are you referring to normal modes? Because my comments were directed to the heroic versions of the encounters.

Anywho, I won't bother getting into the debate over safeguard as that horse has already been beaten to death on these forums, it's just something I prefer and find to be useful in some heroic encounters.

Hardmode exclusive insights, else there wouldn't be any Conclave stacks to worry about, Nef adds to kite for ages, .. etc. :) Maloriaks Hitpoints for 10 man are heavily undertuned right now if you've wondered about that passage. You'll have to kill the adds if you want to push him before a the second green phase.

I'm running with Safeguard myself at the cost of improved Revenge, especially for 10s without enough external cooldowns (at least until 4.1 and Rallying Cry/Spirit Link Totem) it's huge.

On maloriak hm 25 I solo tank all 9 adds before each green phase. It is useful to be able to kite them...

And on second thought, Piercing Howl is useful to slow guildies that are mced so they have more time to get dps stacks.

On the few hardmodes [10 man exlusivly] I've been, safe guard proved to be a life saver. It can VERY nicly reduce the damage the tank recives on "oh-shit" situations [as he'll take 50% less damage and one melee swing less that would be re-directed to you] on taunt / multi target fights [I'm thinking of magmaw and helfus, even tho I've saved lives on almost every normal encounter aswell].

Apart from that, it really shines as a damage reducer on random raid memebers aswell - a DPS falls below 30-40% on p2 nefarian / magmaw / helfus / any aoe fight? Safe guard him if there's no breath to be worried about [and most fights, atm, there isn't] and the chances are you just prevented his death - saved a BR or a wipe. 'Not my job to correct mistakes of others, the raid should be perfect without me having to take care after sloppy dps/healers' - true, but then again, as I see it, it is the tank's job to keep as much of the damage away from the raid. In today's era where healers can no longer 'blanket the whole raid', any damage reduction talents are welcome, espacially 50% on the cost of 2 talent points [to which I, for one, see no other good alternative].

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Originally Posted by Nehama

On the few hardmodes [10 man exlusivly] I've been, safe guard proved to be a life saver. It can VERY nicly reduce the damage the tank recives on "oh-shit" situations [as he'll take 50% less damage and one melee swing less that would be re-directed to you] on taunt / multi target fights [I'm thinking of magmaw and helfus, even tho I've saved lives on almost every normal encounter aswell].

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I'm not on hardmodes yet. But aren't you supposed to have either more adds than the halfus tank or a higher MS-stack than the halfus tank when you are not the halfus tank yourself? So why would you want to take the extra hits? (Well maybe near the end of the encounter, but then the most dangerous part should be over.

Btw: You don't need to have savegard talented to redirect the two hits. Safeguard only adds the dmg reduction part. And it's "only" 30% not 50%.

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Originally Posted by Nehama

Apart from that, it really shines as a damage reducer on random raid memebers aswell - a DPS falls below 30-40% on p2 nefarian / magmaw / helfus / any aoe fight? Safe guard him if there's no breath to be worried about [and most fights, atm, there isn't] and the chances are you just prevented his death - saved a BR or a wipe.

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For nef p2 you need to have the rdm dps to be on your own plattform. It can be helpfull to save a dps/healer at Halfus, since they should not get melee attacks anyway so you would not endanger yourself doing so. But only if you don't have to move your target around to reach that person and if you don't land in a fire spot doing so. (Most times someone drops low in health is because they are standing in the fire.)

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Originally Posted by Nehama

'Not my job to correct mistakes of others, the raid should be perfect without me having to take care after sloppy dps/healers' - true, but then again, as I see it, it is the tank's job to keep as much of the damage away from the raid. In today's era where healers can no longer 'blanket the whole raid', any damage reduction talents are welcome, espacially 50% on the cost of 2 talent points [to which I, for one, see no other good alternative].

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The major job of the tank is to keep the boss hitting herself and not anybody else. One part of the job is to build up threat, the other part is to stay alive. If someone else is supposed to hit the target the tank is tanking, than it's the job of the tank to not move the target out of the range of the people hitting it if possible. All this are core jobs of the tank, because only she can do them. So only as long as one can maintain those core jobs, a tank should help out to do the job of others. Because when everybody tries to do the job of others, nobody is doing their own job at the end.

This is kind of a side note on the topics present discussion.

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Originally Posted by Katzazi

. All this are core jobs of the tank, because only she can do them.

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I find this arguable, specially regarding "Making sure the boss only atacks you", or in other words, keeping threat. My view of it is that a tanks job is to try to put out a confortable margin of threat for dps to work in. Not pulling, however, would be a dps's job. If a (good) dps is reaching a tank in omen he wont keep going and pull and die (possibly wiping everyone). He will lay off and complain, "bro, im not being able to do my best because im reaching you in threat". Thus a tank should, yes, worry about keeping threat and aggro, but if someone pulls threat its, imho, as much their screw up as the tanks. Its not inconceivable that a tank may be stunned or otherwise find himself in a complicated situation to hold threat, and in these situations the fight is not lost if the raid is capable of managing threat accordingly, either with threat cooldowns or simply by holding back during the moment in which this is necissary.
Additionaly, i beleive that the existance of threat cooldowns and abilities like tricks or MD are further evidence that assuring that a certain mob/boss atacks a designated player in the raid (tank) is not solely that players responsability.
Thus keeping the boss hitting the player assigned to "tank" that damage is a raid effort for successfull groups, and i many times have the impression that even great raiders who play accordingly to this style do not have this idea explicitly in mind.

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Originally Posted by aresius

Thus keeping the boss hitting the player assigned to "tank" that damage is a raid effort for successfull groups, and i many times have the impression that even great raiders who play accordingly to this style do not have this idea explicitly in mind.

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If your DPS can afford to wait the time until it's save to not pull aggro, it's definitely the job of the DPS to not pull aggro. But there are some hardmodes, where you have to kill stuff fast. So you don't have the time to wait. So it is actually an important task of the tank. If it's something you have to worry about cannot be generalized.

But if you get Safeguard/PH you cannot get all threat talents. As long as you don't need the threat talents to do your job it's fine for me. But if you are in a situation where you need the tank to do all the threat possible, getting Safeguard/PH interferes with the core tank responsibilities.

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Originally Posted by Katzazi

But there are some hardmodes, where you have to kill stuff fast. So you don't have the time to wait. So it is actually an important task of the tank.

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I hear if you dps hard enough and pull threat, you get more dps once you're dead.

Even with Safeguard/PH, your threat should have minimal issues. Pull with a golemblood potion and recklessness and its GG. Some bosses hit pretty hard with recklessness up so you can use shield block as well. You dont have to spec into DW to have good threat and do your job.

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Originally Posted by Fujka

I hear if you dps hard enough and pull threat, you get more dps once you're dead.

Even with Safeguard/PH, your threat should have minimal issues. Pull with a golemblood potion and recklessness and its GG. Some bosses hit pretty hard with recklessness up so you can use shield block as well. You dont have to spec into DW to have good threat and do your job.

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You can only use one potion per encounter (beside an initial one) and sometimes you want to use this potion for survival. But there are encounters where you need high initial threat more often. I've not been there. I've not tried them. But you see very good tanks re-gemming towards threat stats for those encounters. So using a threat build probably would be better for those encounters, than a build that gives you the chance to save someone else if they screw up what they should not do in the first place.

Waiting with DPS is not an option everywhere.

You're right! Prepotting doesnt exist!


On a more srs note, almost all the heroic fights rely more on execution than blowing your mana all over the bosses face. After the first 20 seconds, threat is a non issue and just doesnt exist anymore. Golemblood, Recklessness, Shield Block and Shield Slam on the pull. There is little chance someone is going to pull off of you and by the time the potion runs out you are going to have enough veng to make the rest of the fight lols.

For me a tanks job is.

Minimize Raid Damage Taken. Cooldowns & Positioning ( especially taking into account where you are leading your raid members )
Maximize Raid Damage Done. Threat & Positioning ( especially taking into account what you are forcing on your raid members )

And there is always room to make both better as you figure out some little tweaks you can do here and there.

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Originally Posted by Loganisis

Their AoE/Adds spec includes PH. This confuses me because I don't see a lot of value to PH unless you're going to solo-kite the Magmaw adds. Otherwise how does a slow really help you all that much (even if it is spammable)? If adds have to die and you're kiting slowed adds, it seems that you're asking for threat issues. On hardmodes, or I guess even regualrs I haven't seen - what is the value of PH?

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Piercing Howl is for Maloriak adds. It's not useful elsewhere.

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The other talent is Safeguard. Which I understand if you're not going to do taunt swaps, but if you're going to do taunt swaps, how valuable is it?

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For two points it's worth taking but to be honest it's not particularly good. There is no situation where you need it in my 25 man experience. For me it's either Impending Victory or Safeguard and I'm favoring Safeguard at this time, even though I might pick up IV over SG for Cho'gall.

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Originally Posted by Katzazi

I'm not on hardmodes yet. But aren't you supposed to have either more adds than the halfus tank or a higher MS-stack than the halfus tank when you are not the halfus tank yourself? So why would you want to take the extra hits? (Well maybe near the end of the encounter, but then the most dangerous part should be over.

Btw: You don't need to have savegard talented to redirect the two hits. Safeguard only adds the dmg reduction part. And it's "only" 30% not 50%.

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You are right, it is 30%. I donno why I thought it's 50%. Then again, even 30% are worth those 2 talent points, imo.

About helfus, I was thinking on a bit later phase, when a dragon is down. I learned since then that it's not as a good idea as I've thought it will, but it still happens to be usfull.

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Originally Posted by Katzazi

For nef p2 you need to have the rdm dps to be on your own plattform. It can be helpfull to save a dps/healer at Nefarian [?], since they should not get melee attacks anyway so you would not endanger yourself doing so. But only if you don't have to move your target around to reach that person and if you don't land in a fire spot doing so. (Most times someone drops low in health is because they are standing in the fire.)

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At nefarian's p2 [the same as with chogal's phase 2, if you're not with wrath and waiting for your turn, on normal mode anyhow] there is random raid damage on your pillar - if you interven someone right before lava comes, he'll take 30% less damage for 6 seconds - and you'll be able to reduce damage income for another 3-4 times druing the whole phase [when other then being a back-up interupter and a minor dps addtion, you pretty much have nothing else to worry about]. Also, if you're pushing a crackle in that phase and have a dps that can't self heal/use defancive CD's, the healer on your platform would love you if you'd drop a 30% reduced damage on a crackle. [that's 60k~ damage taken insteed of 90k~].

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Originally Posted by Katzazi

The major job of the tank is to keep the boss hitting herself and not anybody else. One part of the job is to build up threat, the other part is to stay alive. If someone else is supposed to hit the target the tank is tanking, than it's the job of the tank to not move the target out of the range of the people hitting it if possible. All this are core jobs of the tank, because only she can do them. So only as long as one can maintain those core jobs, a tank should help out to do the job of others. Because when everybody tries to do the job of others, nobody is doing their own job at the end.

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You totally missed my statment. I agree it's not the tank's main objective to keep people in the raid alive by reducing their damage income. However, espacially when you're progressing and have the right gear for an encounter [not over gearing it], every member in the group should, imo, think a bit out of the box and sometimes do things that aren't as understood as they seem. Yes, on the pillars on nef's p2, we have enh shaman help healing himself [and sometimes others! :O] if the healer is a bit undergeared and is struggling with mana.

I really belive that intervene is a great tool to decrease damage income in some situations. I know it makes the tank's job MUCH harder, to not only do his job but also always keep in mind that you can use it and think how to use it so that the boss doesn't move [under 8 yards from you, you don't move. You just put the buff on a player], at what situations you can cast it and get back to place without the boss moving [Solar beem on atramedes? Valiona's deep breath?].

You can be a great tank without this utility. But you can be even better if you do learn to use this ability. I've tought myself on big aoe packs to charge in, rend, spread it with a TC, then intervene a healer and heroic leap back in without moving the adds. I've even done it on helfus hc once. It's a great way to increase the threat gain on that very 1st few seconds when threat is so valuable. It's hard to do correctly [coz if you fail, you move him away and lose preciouse BL time, espacially untill next patch, where HC leap will be off CD], but it's espacially rewarding when you do manage to pull it off. [7k crit x as many targets as you've crit is always fun to see].

The talent itself isn't game changing, aswell as the skill and the usage of it are optinal and aren't really mandatory. Then again, if you do want to squeeze 100% of your utilities and be the best you are, I strongly recomand you practice and actually use as many utilities as you have. The way I see it, the only choice is either SG or Deep wounds and after the initial 20~ seconds of most fights [where deep wounds aren't even that felt], I'm sky high on threat and can basicly forget about it.

Again, all the above applies to 10 man raiding. I do belive that in 25 man, as you have more healers and more people with external CD's and such, you have a bit more of varity and then induvidual's ability to squeeze every advantage out of their class is less felt.

You mix up two things again. Most of what you describe as useful Intervene is about Intervene, not about Safeguard. At least that is what I read into your example of intervening a healer. And I don't get why you want to do it at all. Since you zoom out of melee range, so you cannot build up threat on them at least for 2 GCDs. The healer should not pull aggro anyway, if you are oping up correctly and I don't see how it is easier to grap losing adds if you do move out of their range. If you stay where you are, you can ensure the adds targeting you (and not your melee for example) much better, so your healer will not be in danger, anyway.

One problem with your examples is that it's hard to know who will need the buff in the near future. I'm playing a holy/disc-priest as former main and current alt. I know about the difficulty to decide when it's the best time to apply dmg saving buffs to which "normal" raid member. At least you need to communicate your buff well, so that healers know that the person can be ignored a little bit and that the person saved does not spend the one GS at the same moment.

About Chogall: When I'm thinking about a utility build for this encounter, PH and Gag Order (to free people with Heroic Throw) would come into mind way before Safeguard. Sure healing is hard pressed in p2 and if someone reaches 100 corruption the only thing that prevents their death is dmg reduction, not healing. But nobody should get as high, while you should need slow in any case. (You can use Intervene / Jump to get near the ooze and away from them.) Btw: When someone is as high that they need Safeguard to survive, they have to puke often enough. You often enough don't know exactly where you will land with Intervene, so you may just rush into the puking - giving the healers even more corruption stacks to heal against.

The question is not: Can Safeguard be useful? (All talents available can be useful.) But: Are other talents (which compete for the same talent points) more useful for the encounter in question, if Safeguard may be used for that encounter at all?