Is Last stand of prot warroir survival skill in Cata?

Last Stand uses:

Magmaw Mangles: Last Stand+Enraged Regen makes healing the tank during mangle easymode, and can also help survive that initial DoT tick that hits at the same time as a melee swing.
Maloriak: Uh oh, there are 12 adds up. Last Stand/Enraged Regen/Shield Wall while picking up the final three, then start kiting.
Chimaeron: Double Attacks each hit for 180k. I generally raid at 170k buffed. There are 2 in a row at the beginning. Shield blocking the first and Last Standing the second before the Massacre helps ensure you'll survive that second Double. It can also be very useful in conjunction with Enraged Regen during Feud to lower the healing load.
Halfus: Any time you're taking more damage than usual. Tanking 2 drakes at once, tanking Halfus with Malevolent strike stacks. This can take a bit of the pressure off of the healers.
Double Dragon: Phase transitions when the ranged all have to get stacked, LS+ER can keep you alive while the healers have to run around. Also good for, "ZOMG, all the healers just got hit by the Deep Breath. I have to keep myself alive until they can make their way out of the twilight zone."

That's just in the fights I've done so far. If you have no other use for it, LS+ER just simply takes pressure off of the healers. It's a good cooldown.

Holy crap... Whoever thinks Last Stand is garbage is crazy.

Last Stand serves 3 VERY useful purposes:

1. Pre-emptive - fights where you know there will be large burst with limited heals, this buys your healers seconds to keep you up. This is different from #2 in that is saves enraged regeneration for another time.

2. As bonus raid healers - Certain tank-killer mechanics can be effectively contained simply by knowing when to pop your biggest self-heal, which acts like 2 healers (ticking for something like 9k health every second if memory servers in 346 gear = HUGE)

3. As an Oh Spit! button. We've all been there. SB is on CD, SW is on CD. Trinkets are on CD. Healers are running around because of fire/fear/etc. What do ya do... Last Stand and buy yourself the time for those effects to wear off and your healers can go back to work.


Last stand is absolutely a survival ability. At the very least, it is a tempoary heal for:
Magic Damage = 30% of your base health
Melee Damage = 30% of your base health * 1/(1-damage reduction)

It's doesn't smooth incoming damage like shield block or sheild wall, or some trinkets, but it definately increases your survability.

If you don't think it's survability you either:

A) Overgear the encounter (e.g. Festergut with 30% ICC buff with a Holy Pally in 264s healing and pushing 42k armor at the time as the tank); or
B) ... I'm not sure. I'm not sure how you think Last Stand isn't great survivability.

Silly, it's 30% of your maximum health, not base health.
/bonk

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Originally Posted by KR_Maintanker

Many people think concurrent using of LS and regen is natural..Then, warrior's survival skills are 2 min Sheild Wall,

3min Last Stand + Enraged Regen and .. it's all?

How about other tankers? I don't know exact survival skills of other tankers, but i know they have much more than 2 skills.

And i think tanker's various self healing(the things of prot palladin and blood DK) must be involved a sort of survival skill in cata, if so,

the gap among prot warrior and other tankers become so wide...

If someone talks about impending victory as survival skill.. then.. /sigh...

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Well I play a big old bear and we only have Frenzy Regeneration, Survival Instincts, and Barkskin as far as non-proc CDs and our mastery is based on is a flat bonus to a proc thats based on us critting and a coin flip (savage defense is 50/50 chance to proc on crit) but this is really just a sudo block since bears cant do that or parry. So if you think your Warriors tool kit is small remember that you have more tools then others (I dont know what DKs or Pallys have though) And I like tanking on my bear its fun, I feel confidant that I can tank anything with a good group in the wings.

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Originally Posted by KR_Maintanker

How about other tankers? I don't know exact survival skills of other tankers, but i know they have much more than 2 skills.

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Careful now.. that is starting to sound more like a class comparison QQ than a question about last stand.

To answer your question, I agree with others here that LS can be very useful. It can be used alone, or with enraged regen, depending on the situation. It can also be wasted if you use it at the wrong time. That, to me, is good design.

As to the question about other tanks.. instead of comparing warriors to them, ask yourself if warriors have the tools that they need to tank? Is there a situation where you cannot tank as a warrior? Is there a time when you make the healers life much more difficult? Personally, I do not think so. The tank classes have different abilities, true. But warriors, pallies, DKs and druids can all tank effectively. If you do not like the play style of warrior tanks, that is one issue. But I think you will find, no matter what tank class you play, you will always be wishing you had one more survival skill.

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Originally Posted by KR_Maintanker

In cata, all tankers have too much health so bosses swing damage also grows big.

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"Hailing from the deepest darkest caverns of the Storm Peaks, Gormok the Impaler! Battle on heroes."

Now if you're saying Heroic Gormok the Impaler didn't hit hard, where your tank could go from full health to dead in under a hundredth of a second... then I have a hard time gauging where you are going with your arguments.

I haven't really done the math, but I'm pretty sure that something like Heroic Halfus Wyrmbreaker would take longer than that to kill a mage, sitting down, facing the other direction.

In raw numbers, yes bosses are hitting harder today. However in relative terms, they are significantly weaker overall. While they hit for more damage, this damage is less relative impact on the player's health (they can take more hits). A boss hitting for 40k when you only have 45k is a lot more dangerous than a boss that hits for 50k when you have 200k.

I'm pretty sure this entire discussion is based off of false pretenses. Which is why pretty much everyone is universally disagreeing with the original post.

Okay.. Thanks to all reply.. I feel prot warrior behind prot palladin and blood DK and I knew it's because survival skill's insufficience..

And many healers playing with me said LS cannot help their healing especially they were almost OOM in raid emergency situation.

I adjusted my opinion because of many good reply..

But I still think in most raid boss tanking situation, many warrior's utility is not concerned about survival directly...

I cannot use disarm, heroic leap and etc to boss.. they're not applied to raid boss.. And I cannot move because of RDPS or

some other reasons..

I admit i am QQing.. :) But I really want to know other prot warrior's opinions about our survival skills..

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Originally Posted by KR_Maintanker

I cannot use disarm, heroic leap and etc to boss.. they're not applied to raid boss.. And I cannot move because of RDPS or some other reasons..

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I leap around while tanking Cho'gall or Omnotron quite a bit to reduce incoming damage greatly.

In comparison to a prot pally that can dish out 3500 hps and more while having utility spells like raidwall, bubble, hand of sacrifice, protection and lay on hands you might feel very small on first glance. Be we have other strengths which make us as awesome as we are like dishing out insane dps and tps while multitaking adds or hard hitting bosses.

it needs to be popped with enraged regeneration to maximise and catalyse effective health. both LS and ER can also be used separately as minor cd's so the option is there

when we first downed ODS, i solo tanked it as a warrior. we tried every combo of available tank pairs that we could 2xDK, DK/Druid Druid/warrior, & warrior/DK.

the penultimate attempt the co tank died at 50% and i tanked both of Golems to 3%. the other tank swtched to DPS, for the next try and an additional 8K dps and another hit capped interupter made ODS a good deal easier, we killed it a minute faster than our best wipe..

Warriors may not have the best CDs, but geared correctly i feel we're the easiest tank to keep up. If you're healers are finding you hard to keep up then its probably either the tank or the healers doing something wrong, than the class being weak.

There are fields where we lack. Paladin utility can be extremely good (raid bubble, self bubble to get rid of stacks, melee bubble on someone else) the same can be said for some DK stuff (I don't raid with one so I don't know all of them). So is self healing of both paladin and DK. Maybe warriors lack somewhat in this department. But we also have great utilities. Especially for kiting and multi mob tanking and stuff like that.

Warriors probably have the most choices regarding CDs. Everybody has a form of SW now. But the warrior version is different. We can chose how we want it to be. While we can never get it to where everybody else SW is (50% on 3m CD), we can decide if want to have it every 2m at 40% reduction or every 4m at 60% reduction. Both can be more helpfull (or worse) than the normal version of the other tanks. We can decide to use LS and enraged regeneration together or seperately. Nobody else can make such a decision.

And we have the best combination of mastery + short CD: Shield Block. We can use it around more or less every boss ability. That's extremely good.

So I don't want see warriors as weak tanks. But I think that there are some fields where warriors could be improved. At least if you look at DKs and paladins. Paladins just got the reliable interrupt. Maybe it's time to give warriors some form of reliable self heal or something like that. (Same should be said about druids.)

a warrior complaining about a lack of self heals is kinda like a rogue complaining he doesn't have a combat pet.

I agree it has a perfect synergy with Enraged Regeneration and admittedly i tend to use both of them at the same time to help healers.
But there are times where LS alone is incredibly strong, Reev mentioned a few and ill throw in some more:
- Preemptively @ Chimaeron phase 2. Going into phase 2 w. those extra 30% hitpoints can save the wipe, especially since healing is reduced to 0.
- Cho'gall phase 2; you're targeted by several beams at once and your raid members are slow on interrupting (hey, we all know it happens).
- BWD trash; the 2 dogs+Wyrmkin; they shimmer and you all get stunned a few seconds later.

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Originally Posted by KR_Maintanker

Okay.. Thanks to all reply.. I feel prot warrior behind prot palladin and blood DK and I knew it's because survival skill's insufficience..

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Not sure how you could say a warrior is worse off than a DK atm. Since the patch, geared DK tanks seem to get hit twice as hard as geared prot warriors.

prot warrior was my first toon and is still my main. i have both a dk and paladin tank aswell but i still roll my warrior for this main reason.

dks and paladins have a "GLAM" effect when using certian abilities.

for example:

boss at 1% hit enrage timer everyone dies. paladin tank pops bubble. dose 50K damage and lives. the reaction - "ZOMG AMAZING TANKING PALADIN!".

or

your wiping on a boss, healers down.. the off tanks die. the dk manages to live long enough for the dps to finish the kill using self healing. the reaction " ZOMG PRO TANKING"


no one is really cheering a warrior using shield wall or shield block, or using a cooldown rotation for that matter during the fight . however, assuming there isnt a supermassive fail on behalf of the entire raid, prot warriors when played properly reduce the strain on your healers considerably. the mobility of heroic leap, 2 charges, and an intervine allow you to make quick decisions and adjustments in the raid to prevent the prementioned situations from happening. overall, you have more control when tanking a given confrentation.

I think it takes a keen eye to notice a well played prot warrior and thus, the avg jo player dosnt give the same kind of /cheer to the person behind the GUI. but thats not to say they arent better off in their own way.

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Originally Posted by Doc309

a warrior complaining about a lack of self heals is kinda like a rogue complaining he doesn't have a combat pet.

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That's not a very good comparison. Warriors can talent for some heals. And they are extremely good with self-heals at trash (when they can get a kill). There is even a threat in this forum if current warrior selfheal abilities are OP. Rogues don't have a pet and it would not be a realistic addition to their role and kind of dps. However self-healing is something other tanks can do.

The problem with warrior self heal is, that it's very hard to control and only usable in special cases. For example I can use VR regularly while questing in current content, but I cannot use it when I want to solo karazhan or stuff like that. Or there is a talent to get VR working in fight - for a reduced amount, but it can only used after a proc from devastate AND when the enemy is below 20%. So even when talented it is restricted to the last part of the encounter and a really low value which already are harsh conditions, but even then you need a proc from your lowest priority ability. If you are lucky you can use your selfheal every second GCD after 20%. If you are unlucky you can never use it even while spamming devastate. In other cases (parasites at Magmaw for example) one can even use the full selfheal more or less on CD because one continuously kills stuff.

The complain is about the unconsistent selfheal and the lack of control over it. It would be much better, if it never would be as good or as bad as it is now. And you can only find few abilities at all that are as constricted as IV that also need a proc to be usable at all.

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Originally Posted by KR_Maintanker

I admit i am QQing.. :) But I really want to know other prot warrior's opinions about our survival skills..

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Can this thread just end already? It's been reduced to class comparison and relatively meaningless in overall value add.

Raid culture of Korean servers is a little different from US or EU's..
Many people are enjoy gold-bidding raid rather than guild raid..
There are no regular members but some raid managers recruits raid members at party recruiting window in various time and target dungeon condition..
Almost all server users open that recruiting window and if they see appropriate time and dungeon condition, they whisper to that raid manager they want to go..
Then raid manager check battle armory and reply to them yes or no..

Recently, most raid manager recruits only blood DK and prot palladin as tankers.. I asked them why, they said, that is most effective..
We call it 'mak-gong' in korean, most 'mak-gong' kills all raid boss except chogall and nefarian.. but some also kills them and try to hard mode..

So, I think it's because survival skills espevially LS and long GCD,and I want to know the opinions of US and EU's prot warriors..
Anyway thanks to all good replys..

After the patch I thiiink that warriors might be better tanks on melee bosses than dk's.
I was MT at Chimaeron last night and the dk died from the first double attack, with the same gear. Combat ressed, and died again after the next double attack. I tanked Chimaeron all the way to 15% from 80%, and I can tell that Last Stand & ER can make the healer relax a little and focus a bit on raid healing and maybe saving some mana.