talent: deep wounds

i've looked around alot on prot warriors talent trees- wowpop, and wowhead, and other prot warriors and i found 99% of the ppl use the talent "deep wounds" im not sure but that seems a waste of a few talent points

maybe i dont understand it but my current ave weapon damage is alil over 1k and so 48% of that would be around 500 damage, and then spread that out over 6 sec, thats not alot...

it (to me) would seem more usefull put the talent points into something else like blood craze or cruelty

please correct me if im wrong - or am i goin down the right track

I didn't like how many points it cost for this talent. Back in wrath it was a must have, but with the new trees I just don't see it giving the same benefit. It's much less costly (point wise) to spec into blood and thunder and that would give roughly the same benefit.

For 5man heroic I would go into the fury tree, if you take anything in a 2nd tier at all. AoE slow and more dmg for your interrupts is more usefull as a tank one interrupts much. So it may be even a dps gain. (Or just take stuff from prot - there is enough.)

Two things:

First,

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Originally Posted by scotty

my current ave weapon damage is alil over 1k and so 48% of that would be around 500 damage, and then spread that out over 6 sec, thats not alot...

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Why does it matter that it's spread out over 6 secs? 500 damage is 500 damage. You should be thinking of it as "whenever I crit, I do an extra 500 damage."

The only time the 6 sec comes into play is -coincidentally - the last 6 secs of a fight.

Secondly,
Your average weapon damage is only 1k if you're using a grey quality weapon. Deep Wounds benefits from AP just as other weapon damage based abilities (and talents such as Bastion of Defense, etc, etc). For Warriors in 333-346ish gear your average weapon damage should be just north of 2k, unbuffed. So it's more like 950-1k dmg every time you crit.

As others have said, the opportunity cost is debatable, plus in 5 mans trash often dies too quickly for DoTs to really do their thing. Anecdotally, I'm surpsied you say you've seen the majority of prot Warriors take this. The vast majority of the ones I've seen skip this, even when running 2 Prot specs.

I never find myself with the spare talent points for deep wounds. I had been mucking around with it a bit, and found it to be ~1.2% of my damage per talent point. But I'd vouche for blood craze before deep wounds.

not worth the small threat gain for 3 talent points since threat is really easy to generate right now.

Will probably get rid of Dw in my tank build, next time i respec, theres some nice situational talents , i would rather have now.

I've been using Deep Wounds, and the damage isn't insignificant, but it's not much for 3 points. I may end up speccing out of that and into Piercing Howl soon.

I have never used Deep Wounds, it was never a must-have as far as I was concerned. Now, I find it much better to have a 30-second shout, piercing howl, and increased crit chance for Shield Slam. I do not use Blood and Thunder, either, I consider that a gimmick and a waste, as well. With Revenge hitting another target and cleave, you have more than enough to AoE tank anything in 5-mans.

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Originally Posted by Bayho

I do not use Blood and Thunder, either, I consider that a gimmick and a waste, as well. With Revenge hitting another target and cleave, you have more than enough to AoE tank anything in 5-mans.

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Not totally on-topic, but BnT is a single target DPS increase also - it's not just for AE tanking. It really does shine in AE scenarios, but it's not a waste at all on single targets. The only other real option for a single target DPS talent is, coincidentally, Deep Wounds.

what about thunderstruck? i like the upfront burst and aoe/single target gain it gives over bnt.

Has any math been done as to the value of tanking dps/threat talents like Deep Wounds, War Academy, Cruelty, Incite, and Heavy Repercussions?
Perhaps I just haven't looked hard enough, but calculating relative value on talents like these should be relatively easy. If no one has a link I can get to work on it, but ever since noticing that Kungen has chosen to go 2/2 on Cruelty and 0/2 on Heavy Repercussions, I've been searching for some definitive information on why.

Thanks for the help as always.

nark, it's probably due to saving shield block as a defensive cooldown and not using it for offense like most of us have been doing.

I like thunderstruck. It's kind of a pain to stack though.

If in's an AoE situation I get an itchy trigger finger on SW.

If it's single target, I end up thunderclapping more often than I should. But again that's cuz I get twitchy about letting the buff fall off.

I guess the lesson here is to relax a little and do the rotation properly eh? But then again, you want to use SW on cooldown anyways and you *don't* want to be thunderclapping more often than 15/30 seconds (depending on BnT). So maybe I should just forget getting a full stack in single target fights?

i tclap pretty often anyways, normally it comes off cd while i'm devastating, which isn't ideal in damage or threat anyways, and get normally 2-3 stacks before i can shockwave again, even at 2 stacks, that's 20% bonus damage on our best damage/threat move right? what i like about it is that it doesn't require me having to figure out how to squeeze in a whole new button into my gcds, and while doing trash, i'll just tclap while running to the next group of mobs to keep my stack up, works pretty good. if i get off a 3 stack shockwave and a tclap as i pull a group, i've never lost aggro in a heroic 5 man =P

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Originally Posted by Narkanius

Has any math been done as to the value of tanking dps/threat talents like Deep Wounds, War Academy, Cruelty, Incite, and Heavy Repercussions?
Perhaps I just haven't looked hard enough, but calculating relative value on talents like these should be relatively easy. If no one has a link I can get to work on it, but ever since noticing that Kungen has chosen to go 2/2 on Cruelty and 0/2 on Heavy Repercussions, I've been searching for some definitive information on why.

Thanks for the help as always.

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There was a very good thread here on TS somewhere that layed out how much of a DPS boost you get from each point of Incite compared to your character sheet crit rate. I'll try to find it and link it.

War Academy is easy to calculate. How much of your overall damage is comprised of Heroic Strikes? Add +5% of that damage for each point of War Academy.

Deep Wounds is unchanged from pre-Cata. It's a flat increase in damage based on your average crit rate and your weapon damage.

Cruelty and HR aren't hard to calculate seperately, just multiply them together if you get both. I don't understand why one would get Cruely over HR though. HR is a 100% damage boost for 10 secs out of 30 (1/3 uptime), which comes out to a 33.33% increase in damage. There's no way 10% crit can compete with that, even factoring in Deep Wounds. You're not going to stop pressing SS when SB is active - there's no sacrifice there.

Also keep in mind that alot of these stack with each other, making the relavite value partially dependant upon what your other talent points will be.

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Originally Posted by Muffin Man

So maybe I should just forget getting a full stack in single target fights?

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It's a DPS loss to wait on Shockwave in single target, or AE fights (with the only exception being if you delay Shockwave by only 1 GCD).

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Originally Posted by Andenthal

War Academy is easy to calculate. How much of your overall damage is comprised of Heroic Strikes? Add +5% of that damage for each point of War Academy.

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And Cleave. Which on trash pulls is probably your biggest damage contribution.

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Originally Posted by Narkanius

Has any math been done as to the value of tanking dps/threat talents like Deep Wounds, War Academy, Cruelty, Incite, and Heavy Repercussions?
Perhaps I just haven't looked hard enough, but calculating relative value on talents like these should be relatively easy. If no one has a link I can get to work on it, but ever since noticing that Kungen has chosen to go 2/2 on Cruelty and 0/2 on Heavy Repercussions, I've been searching for some definitive information on why.

Thanks for the help as always.

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dw about kungen, hes a special sunflower, he could care less about the theory side of the game, and pretty much just does things he feels works best for him from after talking with his guild , trying beta and spying on certain people,

Only reason he done what you said is cause he doesnt care at all about threat, and has decideded to take it to an extreme (like i said he just does what he feels like ), he wanted piercing howl, so had to take crulety by default not cause he thinks its more threat than HR.

On his first spec where he dont even have piercing howl, and took cruelty anyway , thats just a simple case of him , and the way he plays lol, he trys to keep his two tank specs similar lol, and probbaly didnt even realise he missed HR. He will will eventually change it, when he thinks he needs more threat, his specs change alot when hes trying for world firsts lol.

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Originally Posted by Krays

Only reason he done what you said is cause he doesnt care at all about threat

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He isn't specced into Safeguard or impending Victory at his 5/5/31 so it's not about losing threat, it's about taking other talents over eg Heavy Repercussions for more (aoe) threat. Just compare Thunderstruck to the (at maximum) 1/3 uptime of Heavy Repercussions. It's a fair tradeoff, isn't it?

And for his other specc, taking a utility talent like Safeguard over HR is an easy choice (at least at 10 mans) due to the need of as many options to smooth out damage (external cooldowns) as possible. Initial threat isn't an issue anyways with 2-3 hunter, 2-3 rogues and some thorns at raids of 25, after that it's simply about keeping your vengeance up.

I woudn't really consider taking deep wounds due to the need of spending 8 points into arms tree, 3 points for a mere 5% damage increase. Blood Craze isn't much healing but it's at least some sort of helping out your healer and on fights with many adds (Al'Akir, Maloriak) it adds up very quickly.