Printable View
Also, the 10% threat-reduction isn't a problem at all in the given content. It might become (as it was on Lich King), but it isn't now. The ability also works for non-tanking people as well as mentioned above.
Safeguard and Piercing Howl are two interesting "tools" Prot. Warriors can and in my opinion should bring to the ball game. It's not needed for every fight but useful for quite a few.
As an OT for Cho-galls, intervene is invaluable.
Intervene the tank when Cho-gall firebuffs himself, throw up shield block and mitigate 2 hits and leave MT in easy mode for the rest of the buff.
Final phase healing is already a monster, rotating the intervene into the cool down rotation of the MT and healers provides such a high value.
Intervene is valuable but situational. Its value will go down as fights begin to be over geared and its benefit is just 'nice to have'.
I am finding I need to respec a ton lately, wish I had 4 specs: Tank single, tank aoe, utility (intervene, piercing howl etc) and DPS.
Im not currently specced into Safeguard but I have been thinking about it, I am thinking its useful more than just raids as well. With the heroics requiring so much CC, I am doing tons of sheep/trap-pulls and I am loving intervene for this.
Basically I either focus or target the mage/hunter after marking the mobs, then when they are casting/shooting I battle shout(if required for rage) and after the cc has dropped I intervene (have clique setup to right-click intervene) them which makes all the mobs come straight for me. Sometimes this gets close to the CCer or they take a bit of damage which is where I think safeguard would help.. Thoughts? Is it worth it?
If you run with a fixed group who know your style, I think it's ok. But if you are running with PUGs, I would not recommend to do it. Because most people have learned to at least wait with their dmg until the tank has the mobs in his reach. But they panic if they see mobs running to them. Another problem is, that you dont get any threat from intervening. You are reducing a really small part of threat of someone (and 0 threat on all other mobs) by 10%. But you don't make any threat by this pull. You just add your own 0 threat to the table but don't even have the required 10% to take over. (Priest Fade pulling only worked because it had a fixed amound of reduced threat so they could get virtual negative threat.) And if the mobs start to cast (you need 30% more threat to overtake someones threat when not in melee range) even the 10% reduction could never be enough.
Anyway, there are quite good options to open up without spending half your original rage on something like intervene. You either can charg in and TC before CC lands. OR charge in and Demo to get at least some attention of mobs standing around. Or you can use heroic throw on one mob and meet the group with a charge when they run for your pulling dds. Or meet the mobs with heroic leap...
Interesting.. To each their own I guess but its worked really well for me, Ive only been pugging dungeons (/facepalm sometimes)...
I even get the yellow 'Attacking You' text above the pack of mobs after intervening and they run straight for me.. I am not sure about not getting any threat, I know the tooltip doesnt say I do but I seem to have more threat on the non-CCd pack of 3 than anyone else in the group after intervening..
Having >20 rage to start with does make it better/easier cause I can Intervene, run at the mobs, TC, turn em and Shockwave immediately without waiting for rage to generate..
Saying that I do like the idea of charging in and TC/Demo before CC lands though just the timing/pathing occasionally fails then CC gets broken etc..
Also if for whatever reason I cant pick them up immediately there is always Challenging Shout, which has saved me countless times since Cata dropped...
I'm pretty shocked by this thread.
There is no reason NOT to have safeguard on progression content. "I don't use it that much" isn't a statement of its ineffectiveness, it's a statement of your ineptitude as a player.
It is a short cooldown 30% damage reduction on a player. Not on a tank--on any player in your raid. And now it's got no minimum range. Let's make a list of its uses for every single fight:
Conclave: Someone's low on frost, someone's taking too much damage on wind.
Al'akir: Constantly during P1 on anyone else in your section, constantly during P2 to reduce damage. Has added bonus of moving you out of tornados or into wind blast if used properly.
Halfus: Effective use on players low before triple stuns.
Valiona: Useful for reducing damage to players in every phase, could easily save someone in devouring flame.
Elemental Council: Use it non-stop on players in P1/P3 to reduce damage. Use in P2 if someone can't grab the correct buff.
Cho'gall: Again, able to be used near-constantly.
Omnitron: Multiple, multiple uses. Every ability they have offers a good chance to intervene someone.
Magmaw: Anyone who's low or has no personal CD for fire spit.
Atramedes: "I have high sound!" /cast Intervene
Chimaeron: Alright fine, no use here. I admit it. Maybe on tank for double attack or something, but still, this is not a fight about damage reduction.
Maloriak: Fantastic fight for warrior add tank, reduce healer aggro and give them mini cooldowns to boot.
Nefarian: I would KILL to have a warrior spamming this during P2 as much as possible. P3, provides a valuable cooldown if you're kiting adds for the Electrocute.
A 30% cooldown is huge. Damage reduction isn't just for tanks.
And yes, I play a warrior as well, and played a warrior long before I played my paladin.
Those examples sound entirely theoretical to me. The practical limitations of intervene are more subtle because they effect your positioning, and by inference the positioning of whatever you were tanking. You can't just think of safeguard as a pain suppression you cast on someone.
I dont really like it but it can be nice on some fights. On those 2 examples wouldn't it just mean you're eating damage from devouring flame as well and that player just messed up? Moving the boss on atramedes? really you want to move the boss there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Papapaint
Exactly my thoughts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigbad
While Papapaint shows some very good examples i want to point out my own experiences, too. His POV seems to be mostly 25 man while i'm 10 man exclusivly.
Al'akir: Constantly during P1 on anyone else in your section, constantly during P2 to reduce damage. Has added bonus of moving you out of tornados or into wind blast if used properly.
^ I tank the boss, the only time i could intervene someone during P1 is tornado/windburst.
Conclave: Someone's low on frost, someone's taking too much damage on wind.
^ There's either only me and my healer on frost, when shall i use intervene there? When he's hit by a patch? This way we end up taking roughly 170% damage instead of 100%. And randomly intervening him means the cone/breath thingy can hit him, too. Can't see the benefits of having a melee/tank on wind, ever.
Valiona: Useful for reducing damage to players in every phase, could easily save someone in devouring flame.
^ It's a one tank fight and i want to stay away from the camp as far as possible (read: the clump up at/around the tail) to maximise melee damage. During phase 1 = more likely two players getting hit by shadowblast stuff instead of one. During phase 2 they are at the opposite end of the room, watching for the drake to run around to run immidiatley.
Elemental Council: Use it non-stop on players in P1/P3 to reduce damage. Use in P2 if someone can't grab the correct buff.
^ P1 I'm on frost duty, leaving him alone = less kicks and the hassle with repositioning him for the glaciate. But lots of uses in phase 2/3.
Omnitron: Multiple, multiple uses. Every ability they have offers a good chance to intervene someone.
^ We one tank them, i already have to watch out for a dozen of things at the same time (energy bar, clouds, puddles, who's next, who's tracked/followed by anything) and honestly don't have the prudence to think about the best usage of intervene at the same time, too.
Magmaw: Anyone who's low or has no personal CD for fire spit.
^ It's again a one tank fight, only time i would be free to run around intervening people is during the head phase and there's no damage taken.
Atramedes: "I have high sound!" /cast Intervene
^ Another one tank fight, i'm on gong duty during flight phase (leap/intervene is enough to run away from the fire) and can't see an option to squeeze in useful intervenes.
Maloriak: Fantastic fight for warrior add tank, reduce healer aggro and give them mini cooldowns to boot.
^ Our add placement doesn't allow me to run around that freely after three adds, but i guess i can squeeze in some here and there at the beginning and after the green phase.
Nefarian: I would KILL to have a warrior spamming this during P2 as much as possible. P3, provides a valuable cooldown if you're kiting adds for the Electrocute.
^ A cooldown for your healer? I'm the only one (besides maintank) taking any damage during this phase and have to watch every of my footsteps to bring the adds down properly.
Intervene has always felt like it was meant to be used when an add or whatnot comes along after another group member and starts beating on them, you intervene (reducing their threat and damage taken) and pull the add away. That seems like the logistics behind it. I haven't started the new raids yet but to me the idea of moving a boss from its assigned tanking location is a often terrible idea (as it has generally been so in the past.) There are a lot of situtational benefits to intervene for sure and safeguard, but there's alot of other talents that have the same situational benefits for offtanks etc, such as piercing howl. It is truly everyones own responsiblity to avoid as much damage as possible on themselves and at no point should the be relying on a tank to intervene to save their asses (and if they are taking un-necessary damage, they need to learn the encounters better). Just my 2 cents but intervene has always felt like a good add managment tool, and mobility tool, nothing special.
Papapaint is completely right IMO. There is soo much utility to safeguard and I cant even count how many players ive saved by using safeguard on them (mostly other players than the tank)
Plus, for those who are worried about positionning. This arguement seems very fragile to me, first, intervene has no minimum range, you can do it on someone exactly on top of you. Second, if you are really that worried about position, you can intervene and charge pas in 1 sec, and moving barely the boss that way.
Third on Chimearon, you may not have found a use yet, but seeing someone really low during the feud and safeguarding him is great. This ability IS a pain suppression but lower %, lower duration and lower coldown.
I really feel like I make a better OT then a MT these days, and have our Pali tank be the primary tank. Yes there are a lot of dual tank fights but also a lot of MT fights with an adds OT.
Warriors have a ton of utility that gets squashed with MT'n. Our AOE is disgusting for tanking adds. Vigilance the MT and go to town with taunt spawn for fights like Conclave, Alikar, Maloriak, Nef, Halfus. Intervene for fights where you aren't tanking something and can throw around a massive damage reducer every 30s. Heroic leap for getting around quickly, no one can traverse a room as quickly as a warrior ( leap > intervene > charge). Shockwave is so as a cooldown when tanking adds - maloriak, magmaw, nef, halfus, chogall - not to mention great at breaking MC's on chogall quickly.
I'd honestly feel very constrained as a tank if I had to MT bosses right now, I feel I add so much more to the fight by off tanking and I think our Pali is better at getting hit in the face.
10% threat reduction isn't a problem at all given that almost everything is susceptible to taunt. Yes it may be frustrating to have to taunt (if your threat is that poor as a MT you probably shouldn't be MT), but for a 20% up time DR. What they could do is add a glyph (at some level) which removes the threat reduction from intervene.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roarc
No. First of all, battle trance isn't the only place you could put those talent points. Secondly, those other talents increase your damage and tank damage is definitely not insignificant any more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Narph
Unless you're bringing an extra tank just for intervenes, then this will never happen. Both tanks will be tanking something and positioning is important for 2 of the trons, and possibly the other 2 if there's a poison cloud out. Combine that with the fact that a lot of classes have their own damage mitigation CDs, Safeguard is almost 100% useless on this fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Narph
During this phase, the OT (or OTs for heroic) will most likely be tanking adds at this time. Bringing the adds near the boss is even more dumb than the person who didn't run out with their debuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Narph
Also, I saw someone mention Chimaeron. Again this is a fight with no use for intervene. Pre-20% the MT doesn't need any CDs as he will only be taking 15-20k damage for an unavoided hit and even with 30% reduced damage taken. If the warrior is the MT, he shouldn't be intervening the OT because the 10% threat reduction will most likely cause the MT to get aggro back and eat the double attack. Sub-20% its a bad idea to use it also because of the fact that the hit is redirected to you.
The only fight that Safeguard would have any use on is Ascendant Council P3. Another possibility would be Al'akir 25 man during P2 using it on the add tank at the start of the phase. Kind of a catch 22 though since damage isn't much at the start of the fight and by the time damage does get bad it wouldn't be good for the MT to take an extra hit.
You're confusing a few things or I'm not understanding you here.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaydubbleu
Intervene drops the threat on the intervene target. So if you pull a pack of mobs then intervene back to the healer. It's the healer's threat that goes down not yours.
The yellow 'attacking you' text pops up when mobs switch their focus to you. It doesn't actually indicate your threat level. What I mean is if you face pull a group you actually have 0 threat on all the mobs. But because you are the first thing on their aggro table they focus you.
So if you heroic throw a mob, his buddies will also focus you until the healer casts a heal or a dps hits them.
This also means that if no one does anything and you pull mobs then intervene someone, you're still on top of their aggro table (everyone else is tied with you at 0 threat, but since you were first, you are on top). But again, Intervene doesn't modify your threat.
This sums up the Safeguard talent quite well. It's a situational talent that can be very useful on some encounters, and completely useless on others.Quote:
Originally Posted by swelt
The same can also be said for a handful of other talents. It makes them neither completely madatory, nor completely useless.
Could also be used if both tanks are warriors, offtank uses intervene, then main tank intervenes OT, thus taking the boss back due to boss being forced to attack the person who used intervene last. (correct me if i'm wrong)
Maybe during Sleet Storm, but only as long as the person is within range of the boss since the two tanks are going to be moving into position for a good portion of the sleet storm and the new tank needs to make sure that Nezir is facing a good direction when he comes out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papapaint
Wind platform doesn't need a tank.
Damage isn't bad in P1 unless people are chaining other groups in which case an intervene won't save people. I could see using this as an OT for P1, but if the other tank isn't a warrior then you should be the one tanking the boss due to your higher mobility. P2 the add tank cant be moving those adds near anyone and as far as the MT goes see my post above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papapaint
Halfus normal mode only. There's too much damage on heroic for you to be taking someone else's damage too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papapaint
Theralion and Valiona - One tank fight on normal mode. People shouldn't be getting hit by the breath and unless they stand in for the entire duration of the breath, the damage is easily healable.
Elemental Council - Positioning is important for P1 and P2. On P3 though, it is useful as the OT.
Cho'gall - When the add tank is not tanking Cho'gall he is dragging the add into position. The other tank shouldn't be intervening anyone when he has the debuffs.
Omnotron - Intervening (even if you charge back almost instantly) will move the boss and being a heavy movement fight already your melee will not only be very pissed, but will do less damage just so you can reduce some damage that can be dealt with without the buff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papapaint
Magmaw - Normal mode is a one tank fight. If you intervene melee you will turn the boss and if you intervene ranged you will out range the boss and he'll turn and rape one of your melee. Heroic mode the OT(s) will be busy kiting adds the entire fight.
Atramedes - One tank fight, moving or turning the boss is a bad idea.
Maloriak - Healer aggro? When the hell is that EVER an issue!? Raid damage during P1 is pretty low.
Nefarian - Definitely useful here. P2 for sure. P3 you would only really use safeguard if you, like me, were the piercing howl b*tch for the add kiter. If you're the add kiter yourself you don't need the talent to outrange the adds.
The only real uses for safeguard are going to be Nefarian and a couple heroic modes maybe. If you're not the type to respec a lot and you don't have prot as your secondary spec then this talent is WAY (can't emphasize that enough) too situational to take.
Except they've long since removed the minimum range, so there's nothing to stop you using it on--for example:Quote:
Originally Posted by swelt
Al'akir: Someone right on top of you, which anyone in your group should be.
Halfus: Any player in Melee.
Valiona: Anytime the boss is casting.
Council: Any player in melee.
Omnotron: Anyone. Flamethrower targets are a good choice before they run off to the side.
Magmaw: Melee.
Atramedes: Did he just cast flame breath? Safe to intervene. Not to mention it's ALWAYS safe to intervene during air phase.
Chimaeron: Low players during fued, you're stacked up anyway.
Maloriak: Melee
Nefarian: Again, P2.
Quite simply, if your reason as the single most mobile tank class in the game by a mile for not using a thirty percent damage reduction cooldown is because moving is sometimes inconvenient, you need to seriously rethink your class choice.
You don't need to use intervene non-stop to make 30% damage reduction useful. You don't NEED safeguard at all. But Intervene is one of those abilities that separates the best tanks from the merely good tanks. Safeguard adds even more utility to it. The other options are less-than-amazing, and I just can't fathom how a minor DPS increase is preferable to an amazing damage reduction cooldown.
EDIT: I want to clarify, I'm coming from both a tank and healer perspective with this. There are plenty of times when a 30% cooldown is enough to provide significant survival in the hardmodes I've seen so far. I also understand the practical limitations of intervene, using it myself very frequently, and know that it's not nearly as big a deal as those arguing against safeguard are making it out to be.
Short answer: no, it will not work like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanson