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With enough vengeance stacks our dps is really awesome, solo tanked Omnitron (10m) normal mode the other night and between interrupting/hunting for those poison glouds/avoiding blue zones i was still able to manage over 12.000 dps during a 7.5 minutes fight easily with lots of room to improve next id.
My only concern actually is my tps at the beginning of a fight, without any form of thorns/md/tricks i feel really like in those old Molten Core days again "wait for 3 sunder!"..
Hunters (can't remember MM or Surv) can spec into Multi-Shot giving a short Serpent Sting DoT on all targets, same thing for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reev
Awww, now I feel less special. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by WarTotem
Haha I also thought something similar. We had bad AOE for so long, now it's pretty awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by praetoria
Not really tbh, i have been playing as dps at the moment and can tell your ight now, i have to be really careful with my usage of dps cd's with ALL tanks wether single target or aoe, some i cant even do my normal rotation i actually have to drop RB. If i go full out crazy mode from the get go, no tank will be able to keep up without tricks or something. My guess is your dps you are playing with are overly cautious when dpsing, still gearing up and havent really got the best out of their rotation yet.
Vengeance is absolutely needed , and tbh is the only thing letting tanks tank right now when im in the group (and im shit geared and still learning to dps from years of tanking, i can only imagine the kind of threat headaches a good geared, experienced dps will be giving pug tanks)but vengeance can give you a grossly exaggerated recount dps if you aoeing packs, but dont let that fool you.
PS after all my runs i can honestly say when it comes to BOSS tank threat/dps, warriors are not as great as you think, druids on the other hand seem to be doing far more threat/dps imo(single target mainly), i dont find i have to hold back with them much (on bosses). Not so sure about pallies and dks, i have aggro problems with them too, but i think they just were not very good tanks. Druids nearly always seem to be ahead in the tank game every xp lol.
This is just my opinion please dont be offended if you think im wrong. Honestly a small nerf to druid dps (mangle hits way too hard) will bring it all in line imo, and small buff to how quickly vengeance stacks for ALL tanks will fix the issues (also make it easier to dispell vengeance , to keep pvp balance, at the moment i think its an enrage effect, which only a few classes can dispell).
Neither tricks nor MD last permanently now. Give your tanks roughly 10s of positioning/forerun and if you can still catch up in tps either swap out of defensive stance (;)) or change the tanks..Quote:
Originally Posted by Krays
You simply can't use your icc burn&prepot mentality and nuke from the start due to how we choose our gear right now. It's about survival, survival, survival and no glance at threat. Neither +hit nor +expertise are interesting for us, we pick up stamina/parry/dodge/mastery/armor where it's possible to smooth out the healers job (because it's the toughest one right now). Thanks to vengeance tanks should still do fine and if they don't you have to go through the logs and find out what's wrong.
I can safely say, I have the opposite experience tanking as a warrior. My threat is usually skyhigh and so far ahead of people DPSing, it's usually double or triple their threat. The only time it's ever an issue is when a boss spends a lot of time casting on and doing stuff to other people (lack of rage) and or I'm moving out of range a lot to kite (like the second boss in Throne of the Tides on both accounts), and even then it's rarely a problem. At least this is my experience so far in heroics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krays
Warrior threat is complete garbage on any boss that casts spells or doesn't hit all that hard. I can't even hold agro on heroics without aoe tanking them all for the rage.
My guess is you are running in to the super cautious dps types, Some dps are so scared of getting aggro these days they wait a while before attacking by which time you have a nice vengeance stack and nice lead. You know the type, the ones that refuse to attack till every mob is marked and ccd :P (well i may be exaggerating there :P).Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien1099
I think now that tanks are gtting really nicely geared (they will gear much faster than dps, since they have fast ques), they will probably have vast threat lead , to most dps. If a dps attacks the boss same time as you and cracks all his cds' straight away like icc style, then im sure you will have aggro problems though, not that anyone will do that any more i learned not to do that too now.
Honestly im finding vastly extreme different threats between tanks, some are total garbage even with nice gear, some do loads even with bad gear. i never can tell if the tank will do nice tps or not.
Rogues also bypass it with Poisons on FoK. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Reev
Warrior DPS seems pretty solid right now, although in playing my Druid recently it's hard to compare the two. Bear Druids do pretty high DPS right now, especially with well-timed Berserk usage.
(Not just talking AoE, but in terms of burn phases/etc--in AoE situations, Berserk is just insane DPS. This is also pretty handy on a number of fights--a common example from Heroics would be the final burn of Ripsnarl in H Deadmines when the adds start spawning more quickly and you get 4 at the same time. This can be a bit touch or go in a "normal" situation, whereas a Bear can just pop Berserk and kill all the adds easily without DPS even having to look at them.)
The issue I still have with Cata threat and tanking in general is that it is pretty reliant on Vengeance. No Vengeance, no DPS. Lots of Vengeance, pretty high DPS. Fight mechanics can dramatically skew this, with long phase transitions being the worst for Vengeance fall-off.
I think what stats a tank gears for makes a difference. I've been following the recommendation of many here and prioritizing mastery, which has given me stupid high amounts of block. Now chuck in Shield specialization, Bastion of Defense, and Heavy repurcussions, and blocks meen a major dps increase. And since I'm getting hit constantlly but less (as opposed to more spiky avoidance/stam based builds) I'm able to keep vengeance up more. And the increases in rage mean I can make use of HS more, which thanks to incite is doing insane damage. unless I run into someone WELL overgeared compared to me, I dominate them in threat. Unholy DKs and the occasional rogue make me have to work harder, but since hitting 85 I haven't really felt threatened by DPS as long as I don't have any phases where I'm not getting beat on.
And DKs with disease spreading. I realized the rogue thing the other night while playing my rogue. Of course, you don't get too too many poison applications on FoK, so it's not as strong as some of the other uncapped AoEs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kojiyama
The mechanical guy in Heroic Deadmines is really (not) fun to tank as a Warrior, not sure if Druids have the same issues. The only thing I can guess is his abilities aren't counted as melee - but some other odd clasification.Quote:
Originally Posted by gacktt
WTB Revenge that's not dependent upon getting hit, PST.
The mechanical guy in heroic DM does not hit hard, anyway above 30%. One get's few rage and few vengeance from him. And he is out of range for quite long periods of time. So vengeance drops lower during this time. But the vengeance stuff is more or less the same for all tanks, there.
When i was with my destruction warlock, it was realy impossible to dps at full throttle and cooldowns were out of the question most of the time.
It was with warriors, DKs, druids, paladins. Warriors seemed slightly slower on the initial agro compared to the other tanking classes, mostly for the GCD "lost" with rend+thunderclap+shockwave+lack of rage(from shockwave stun).
One of the major reasons i re-rolled from destruction warlock to protection warrior was because i was finding it extremely frustrating i couldnt go all out 100% of my potential due to bad tanking.
I could have been extremely unlucky and only geting the bad tanks, but it was so bad on agro i kinda gave up. Now i'm a protection warrior and i realy hope i can at least do a little better at level 85 than what i found there as dpser.
It's not how hard he hits, it's just how he hits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzazi
I've never had Revenge light up on that fight, so he's either not using attacks that are classified as physical, or they are just not able to be blocked/dodge/parried. You lose a lot of threat/dmg from your rotation just being SS-Devx3 and not being able to use Revenge at all.
To be honest I cannot remember if I can use Revenge there. I know that I did wait to get it up once but I cannot use Revenge on every trash pull because there is a CC at my feet and the mob I'm tanking does not like to be moved away, so I probably just did not realize that I could not use revenge there. However the bigger loss to our dmg/threat is that vengenace is low and rage is low (ok the last is less of a problem if one can use revenge). If vengeance is there it does not matter much if you can use HS+SS+dev or HS+SS+revenge on every CD. If you don't can afford HS (or vengeance is so low that HS may not be best) that's much more of a problem than not being able to use revenge.
Yeah, that guy sucks for rage gen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzazi
To the dps reporting problems with warriors' initial threat, I'm wondering what the warriors your grouped with are doing. My normal pull rotation is: Pre-shout, Heroic Throw->Charge, (Shield Block) Shield Slam, Revenge, T-clap with a heroic strike thrown in there as soon as it lights up.
I can think of one time when I lost threat on a single target to a single rogue, and that was basically because I was lazy after days of not noticing threat at all since it was never a concern. I "woke-up" and did not lose threat to him a second time. He asked me if he should hold back, and I told him, "No, I just wasn't paying attention."
To the guy saying that he had rage problems on AE packs because of Shockwave... Thunderclap first, 1 hit (blocked) from each of the enemies will give you enough rage to work with through the duration of the Shockwave. It should look something like:
Pre-shout, Charge->Rend, Thunderclap (as the group is just starting to move away), Shockwave, cleave/revenge, demo shout, (anything), thunderclap
*snip* right there, if anything of your initial things misses or your dps throws in a huge crit-opener right here the mob turns away and there's no revenge procc, no additional rage from being hit and often not even enough rage for a hs. All you can do by then is hitting taunt, slamming your devastate button and waiting for your ss to light up again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoc
It's not about us not paying attention, it's about our attacks missing 1/5 times due to no hit/expertise. Take Kungen for example, 77 hit rating and a total of 10 expertise.
*snip* again, the mobs will turn away after the shockwave for the howling blast-dk or mob #4 your cleaved didn't hit and is attacked via single target dps. You have to mark a focus mob and work harder on him and have your dps adapt to the warrior-esque 2 gcd of waiting until burst, just like the good old "wait for 3 sunders" in Molten Core days :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoc