That's a good point, and something I didn't think about. If you're having to reapply TC, the 2nd time you do it for Rend isn't technically "wasted", since you would have done it regardless.
Originally Posted by Inuyaki
@Brage, I'll take a closer look @ that log later, the WoL site is giving me issues right now.
Although, I'm less concerned about how well the Warrior performed, and more interested in how his abilities did. Even if you do a backwards prioritiy system (E.G. prioritize Devastate ahead of Shield Slam) the numbers per ability won't change, and that's mostly what I was using this for. I'm not really looking for his total efficiency, but the efficiency of each ability that I'll plug into my own rotation/build.
Edit: this wasn't a full log, only 4 bosses (marrowgar, LDW, Sarufang, Sindragosa) possibly due to changes in the combat log and how WoL parses it, and/or they didn't want to publicly show all bosses.
That's part of it also.
Originally Posted by Namuron
But one could say that BnT and Thunderstuck are strickly for AE purposes - in which case you likely wouldn't be using Heroic Strike anyway - making Incite more or less null.
The same applies to Shield Spec and say, Field Dressing. In a scenario where you're hurting for rage (mobs aren't hitting hard), will the extra heals from FD really make a noticable difference? Or conversely, if you're getting hit hard enough to consider taking FD to increase your survivability, wouldn't you think you'd have near unlimited rage anyway? (Thus making Shield Spec null.)
That's all very nice & stuff, but does the log also show how much innate threat Devaste or TC did?
Originally Posted by Andenthal
Of course not. One option is doing double or triple the damage of another option, even adding in the non-damage threat, it's unlikely that the lower damage option is going to come out ahead. Especially considering that non-damage threat has been toned down quite a bit.
Originally Posted by WarTotem
There's also the point to consider of threat being spread around, versus being on a single target.
Does this Devastate > BnT math consider that 4.0 Rend now crits? My warrior has 9.58% crit with HoW and Rampage, not amazing but substantial if not considered.
Also does this math consider that 4.0 Rend, even via BnT, ticks when initially applied? BnT makes the "pestilencing" TC GCD hit twice as hard. BnT is a burst and sustained AoE TPS talent.
Looking forward to an updated spreadsheet, WarTotem :)
Hehe, working on one, but it's for level 85 (I didn't expect 4.0.1 to be released so soon, nor do I really care about theorycrafting for a 2-month environment)
PS: As I'm looking at it right now, you'ld need atleast 15% Dodge & Parry before Mastery becomes useful, because of DR.
i think most of the discssion on the topic if BnT and thunderstruck is worth it on singel target has not counted in how good slow weapons are for warrior now that HS is not on next swing.
i use a build where i have 1/3 shield specc do not have gag order, impending victory and safeguard, so i lose the threat from the rage i get when i block with shield specc.
with bloodvenom blade norm my rend hits for 503 without any buffs and avg hit of devastate is 1700 and if i refresh my rend after 4 ticks with a tunderclap that dose 400 dmg i will have done 2412 dmg. i will have used 2 gcd but i can just keep useing only thunder clap and in the end do more dmg than i did if i where to fill it out with devastate.
when we are talking about if BnT and thunderstruck can we talk about it with slow weapons sens that is what we want now even if it means that we will be useing non tanking items sens we will only be loseing a bit of avodens hell if a wep has like mastery and hit it can be a tank wep
EDIT1: i'd like to point out that Rend dmg is NOT on Normalization
That might be true, but Devastate still gets a LOT of scaling through innate threat.
In my current gear, using ~11.9k AP (max Vengeance) and a BQ5 (196.5 DPS, 2.0 speed) I get:
Devastate: 5.4k dmg, 18.4k threat
Rend: 4.8k dmg, 14.6k threat
TC: 2.5k dmg, 7.6k threat
Thing is, if I change to a 2.6 speed (using the exact same stats for the rest), Devastate gains MORE threat than Rend. (+0.6K vs 0.4k)
So assuming you can always TC before the last tick, you get:
2xDev vs 5/6 Rend + TC
10.8k dmg vs 4k + 2.5k dmg as well as
36.8k threat vs 12.2k + 7.6k
BnT wins single-target no matter how you look at it.
Assuming you keep refreshing, you still need to TC twice as often to keep Rend on there.
You'ld end up with 5.4k dmg vs 6.5k and 18.4k threat vs 19.8k, but this only works AFTER the first 15 seconds of the fight.
So if you want to more threat from BnT on a boss than ignoring it, you would end up with a requirement of (36.8 - 19.8) / (19.8 - 18.4) = 17 / 1.2 = 15 refreshes atleast, which at a 12-14s refresh timer is 3-3.5min of fight before you equal threat.
In the current environment with Vengeance, the threat after 3min is not important, the inital one is, and BnT does not help there.
Devastate and TC are affected by armor, Rend is not.
Devastate has +15% crit over both TC and Rend.
+30% to Rend in a raid (mangle).
Not sure if this will change the relative power of the abilities or not. I would think that boss armor takes away more than +15% crit gives (isn't boss armor usually in the ~30% range? ~20% after Sunders?). Anecdotally I think it puts Rend + TC even further ahead.
Is everyone ignoring the fact that devastate also procs sword and board which just makes the choice a no brainer for single target. Or did i miss something? Using less devastates = less shield slams. Or is the threat for it including possible SnB procs?
On average 1/3 SnB procs don't give you any extra threat - unless you are hurting for rage.
Because of that we are able to use abilities that do not proc SnB to increase our threat because we are not wasting a SnB proc (Conc Blow, Shockwave, etc.) Keeping Rend up would fall into the same category.
Took the crit & bleed damage into account.
Originally Posted by Andenthal
Boss armor I have pretty low atm (17.4% with sunders), but then again, I also have a 2.04% hit and 12 expertise, which affects Devastate.
(Using my current gear at lvl 85 ratings)
I think both stats will be affecting your BnT comparison relatively the same.
Also not sure if it's well known
If TC misses, Rend is still refreshed (or spread in AE Scenarios).
Basically once the initial Rend is up, it wont fall off unless you miss a chance to TC. The initial application of Rend works like all other melee attacks. (2 Dodges in a row = suck :( )
I haven't seen Victory Rush on Porcell's list. Any idea about its threat value?
It should be the normal values (threat = damage + 0.5 * healing)
Originally Posted by Ghuulkarn
Note that it's actual healing done, not the theoretical max.
in respects to single target threat, I have a question about rotation. should heroic strike take presidence over sw specd full insite?
Im finding my hs criting 10kish pretty often. so my priority system looks like ss, cb rev, hs,sw, dev. condering cds, my most used abilities would be ss, rev, hs, dev.. in that order... thoughts?
I dont see it being worthwhile on a single target either, that GCD used for extra TCs could be used for a devastate which hits harder, especially once vengence is fully stacked.
Originally Posted by Porcell
I keep B&T in my spec for aoe threat, as its great for that and pretty obviously the intended use for the talent. In a single target tanking build I would drop both B&T and Thunderstruck, but both are nearly mandatory for aoe tanking (and face it you spend most of any given raid tanking the trash). Downside being unless you run separate single target/aoe specs you end up with about 35 points in prot which removes the abilitiy to take FD/BC (not that this pairing is really needed for lvl 80 raiding) or war academy (again not really needed but could be nice to have)
Doesn't rend get better with stacking vengeance compared to devastate? I think rend has, broken down, a formula like this over it's course: 150% weapon damage+ AP/(14*weapon speed).
Originally Posted by Voradrac
Anyway, your post has made me realise that even for rend/TC to be an option, you need to invest talent points in it. Assuming you need both BnT and Thunderstruck for rend/TC to work out, it means you invest 4 points that can be put elsewhere. Like taking Gag Order (if that was not taken before for an extra heroic throw every minute) or, more likely, fill up War Academy and possibly taking Deep Wounds. I may be wrong here and miss something obvious, but won't such a close call between talented rend/tc and devastate mean that putting those talent points elsewhere make it pointless to even consider rend and thunder clap in a single-target spec?
Not enough talent points left in Protection by taking out all those.
Originally Posted by Hrolfr
Yes, as you said Hrolfr, Rend is all ready better than Devastate even without the Thunderstruck talent. If Rend is better than Devastate, surely Rend + TC is better than Devastate.
Gag Order is close to the gain you get from Thunderstruck. Blood and Thunder is a larger gain than both, but assumes you'll be able to take advantage of it often (low movement, etc). You only have to refresh Rend via TC once per minute for it to yield a larger DPS gain.
The only choice to be made is if you feel you won't be able to maintain Rend via Thunderclap for whatever reason, and that you'll be more likely to use Heroic Throw (heavy movement, add spawns, whatever).