Understanding Fury in 4.0

Alright ladies and gentlemen, recently I had a moderately heated discussion about delaying the use of the "second BT" in order to maximize slam usage. I argued against this, and the other individual argued for this. There was no good conclusion to this discussion because it was more of a side argument. anyway, this got me thinking, and when I start thinking I generally end up pulling out my calculator.


So, I will be using damage values from this here beta parse (I was TG):
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...7l/details/24/

average damage per GCD:
slam = 12368.1
BT= 16600.75
RB= 25662.6

Now we did come to the conclusion that you do not want to delay the use of RB ever because it does crazy large amounts of damage.

Now, when you delay BT, its CD conflicts with the next RB CD.
0.0 BT
1.5 RB
3.0 Slam
4.5 BT (-1/2 BT)
6.0 Slam
7.5 RB (BT comes off CD)
9.0 BT (-1/2 BT)_________
10.5 Slam
12.0 BT
13.5 RB
etc


What this means, is that when ever you delay BT for slam, you actually end up losing one whole BT. And because of the fact that BT hits harder than slam, even if you ignore the fact that you would get an extra slam out of delaying the 2nd BT 30% of the time, it's still a DPS loss, but if you know me and math, I can't simply ignore that sort of thing.

damage loss if you get 2 slams:
16600.75-12368.1= 4232.65
4232.65/9=470.29 DPS loss per occurrence
because this occurrence only occurs when you get two consecutive bloodsurge procs, the frequency is only 9% of the time:
0.09*470.29 = 42.32 DPS loss

damage loss if you only get 1 slam:
16600.75-0 =16600.75
16600.75/9 = 1844.52 DPS loss per occurrence
because the odds of getting a proc is 30%, and the chance to have to consecutive procs is 9% (which already implies having the first BT proc bloodsurge), the frequency of having just one slam like this is 21%.
0.21*1844.52 = 387.35 DPS loss


Adding it all together:

387.35+42.32 = 429.67 DPS loss from delaying the 2nd BT.



Now, what this means is that if you have the rage to use BT over a slam, use BT, but if you don't have the rage to use it, by all means use that slam (if you don't have the rage to use BT, you still end up pushing back BT and losing 1, so it's better to at least get a slam in instead of losing a BT and a slam).


I love it when I'm right.

Im feeling really depressed about my warrior right now, i just did a pug raid, the nerf was huge on my dps, i used to be always near top of recount now im literally near the bottom again as if my gear was still i lvele 232 ;s. Done everything like is described here, ie going for hit cap and all that stuff. I havent tried reforging full mastery yet though im gonmna try that if that dont help, then im really sad :(.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Krays

Im feeling really depressed about my warrior right now, i just did a pug raid, the nerf was huge on my dps, i used to be always near top of recount now im literally near the bottom again as if my gear was still i lvele 232 ;s. Done everything like is described here, ie going for hit cap and all that stuff. I havent tried reforging full mastery yet though im gonmna try that if that dont help, then im really sad :(.

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The nerf was done to tune for Dec 7, when warriors get a new attack and for level 85 DPS, not 80. What's going on right now is not an indication of DPS at 85.

It is unfortunate that some classes, like Fury warriors, which got flat % decrease to their DPS with no signficant changes to talents/abilities have to 'suffer' through 2 weeks of it before the time for the retunning (Cata) arrives. But that's the way Blizzard wanted to roll it out.

The biggest thing is the timing sucks, but it does become a moot point in 2 weeks. It is frustrating.

****

Back on to the topic,

TGM - are you in Beta, how does CB affect the priorities, or is that for another thread?

So we get lower hit and forge for mastery now? cant seem to find the answer to this question. im at 27 hit 33% crit 25 experties. And if so how much hit can we loose to get mastery? Thanks

get enough hit/haste until you are rage capped (~23 rage per second) prioritizing hit over haste until hit is hardcapped, then get reforge any additonal crit in to mastery.


please note that once you get deep wounds (IE, a few hours after cata goes live) crit becomes better than mastery


As for colossus smash, it's the highest priortiy ability we have, and we want to try and fill the GCD table while the CS debuff is active.

Ok cool, thanks guys, i think ill just level up my alts for a week then :P cba to regem and reforge ,for sake of one week lol ( have you all noticed our metas have failed also, i had to buy a crapper one for 200g ;s, but notcied 90% of people still running around with their old ones , yeah i know its getting changed back, but who knows when ).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thegreatme

please note that once you get deep wounds (IE, a few hours after cata goes live) crit becomes better than mastery

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Would it not be better to get Incite over Deep Wounds? So our Crit will go down with each level it seems to me its more boost to stick with 3/31/2 and get Deep Wounds with 83/84/85. Dont think u will get 83 in few Hours.

By the way guys slam is hitting harder than bt right now escpecially from a dpr pov (damage per rage). So im slotting in slam as normal now, i had completely omiited it before the patch.

My priority right now is raging blow-HS-slam-bt.

before this thread gets filled with tons of people saying "HAY DIS IS THE ROTATION IM USIN RITE NAO, IZ IT GUD?" let's start with a baseline rotation that we can all consider, then make intelligent suggestions to improve upon it if necessary.



here's a copy/pasted section from the rotation area of my cataclysm warrior guide I've recently started to work on. I suppose this could almost be considered spoilers?



Note:
BT = Bloodthirst
RB = Raging Blow
CS = Colossus Smash
HS = Heroic Strike
GCD= Global Cooldown (1.5 seconds)
Slam = Implies using a Bloodsuge proc (Read: an Instant Slam, as opposed to casting slam)

CS > RB > BT > Slam > HS

On an exact time-line:

0.0 CS
1.5 BT
3.0 RB
4.5 BT
6.0 Slam
7.5 BT
9.0 RB
10.5 BT
12.0 Slam
13.5 BT
15.0 RB
16.5 BT
18.0 Slam
19.5 BT
21.0 go to 0.0 (CS)

Sub 20%
Use CS on cooldown and spam Execute. Also hit Berserker Rage on cooldown for extra rage. Easy peasy.




and... GO!

Do you still slam even if you don't get Bloodsurge to proc? That part is slightly misleading.

You do not, I added a part in my draft that says this to avoid confusion. but that was after I had copy/pasted this.


I edited the copy/pasted section to include the part about slam usage.

Hi TGM, thanx for all the good work!

Having a look at the rotation and prio's, i got to admit i have probably been smashing about with the slackorspec of all time :D

Basicly what i do and tell my guildwarriors to do after getting hit capped is to get enough haste to be able to spam heroic strike as first prio, and never to use slam.

seems to work fine for me as im normally top dmg having no reforging crit to mastery yet.

Im never ever using slam and havent even got it specced for instant due to that fact.

at this stage i know a lot of ppl have been working and looking left, right and under each rock to find the best possible spec. Fact is anything goes atm as long as you have the right stats. as long as there is rage the mob will suffer ^^

I am however going more in dept once we get those new abileties CS....jum jum

and i do hope you will keep up this good work so that once dinged 85 it will be possible to fast aquire knowledge to get a optimale setup regardless of what "hotfix nerf, Bliznerf, Anti dmg patch" blizzord release.

Once sorting out all my gems now found out meta dont work made me laugh. they do so much silly stuff. also i got a guildie that after patch cant use mounts, not even when he dies in icc and spawn at graveyard he got to run back as ghost as the only one. this game is so fun:p.

again keep up the good work, im gona test forging some mastery now! pew pew

If anyone needs a time line for fury, because of the patch change they should stop and reroll tbh, cause its hardly changed, unless thats the first time anyone seens a timeline for the post 4.0 fury, in which case guess its needed? anyway the question is if you have bt and slam proc up what do you press, because of the changes in 4.03a, not what rotation do i use now that i been nerfed?

seems like you suggest BT, but for me at least slam hits slightly harder and is the cheaper ability, before the patch slam was NOT worth using at all, now not only is it worth using its the better ability bettered only by RB and CS. SO i suggest using slam , but please check for yourselves which is hitting harder and please include the rage cost and RPD.

People should really try to make their own fury rotation imo, maybe for you BT does in fact hit harder for what ever reason, it doesnt for me, so if i follow your timeline i will in fact be loosing dps, i suggest to everyone take that timeline and then find out if it applys to you by checking your slam and bt damage .

PS Heroic strike does still hit harder than BT , but its weaker than RB, so dont spam HS endlessly anymore if it means loosing RB. But once again test this for yourself before you take that on, maybe for you Hs still is the hardest hitting ability you have, as differences in strenth, mastery adn weapon damage can change things drastically, for eg imagine you have the very best gear in game but a rubbish weapon then im pretty sure for you slam will be weaker than BT.

I'm pretty sure I haven't read the words for this yet, I apologize in advance if it's been posted.

What is the haste number you're going for - what % is too much, before going to crit?
thanks

the amount needed is relitive to how much rage you can use. haste is good untill you have sufficiant haste to be able to fill every GCD.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by helmerzinho

Hi TGM, thanx for all the good work!

Having a look at the rotation and prio's, i got to admit i have probably been smashing about with the slackorspec of all time :D

Basicly what i do and tell my guildwarriors to do after getting hit capped is to get enough haste to be able to spam heroic strike as first prio, and never to use slam.

seems to work fine for me as im normally top dmg having no reforging crit to mastery yet.

Im never ever using slam and havent even got it specced for instant due to that fact.

at this stage i know a lot of ppl have been working and looking left, right and under each rock to find the best possible spec. Fact is anything goes atm as long as you have the right stats. as long as there is rage the mob will suffer ^^

I am however going more in dept once we get those new abileties CS....jum jum

and i do hope you will keep up this good work so that once dinged 85 it will be possible to fast aquire knowledge to get a optimale setup regardless of what "hotfix nerf, Bliznerf, Anti dmg patch" blizzord release.

Once sorting out all my gems now found out meta dont work made me laugh. they do so much silly stuff. also i got a guildie that after patch cant use mounts, not even when he dies in icc and spawn at graveyard he got to run back as ghost as the only one. this game is so fun:p.

again keep up the good work, im gona test forging some mastery now! pew pew

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you should use BT.. because it can proc battle trance.

maybe you shouldnt post things like "if you need to see a time line then you should reroll" because now i need to say this.

if you have to ask if you should use slam over BT... you should re roll..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by squats

you should use BT.. because it can proc battle trance.

maybe you shouldnt post things like "if you need to see a time line then you should reroll" because now i need to say this.

if you have to ask if you should use slam over BT... you should re roll..

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ehrm were did i say i were going to use slam over BT? rofl. OFC im using BT. the only thing im working on now is my stats. i got the rest sorted, if it did sound like i dident im sorry.

The fact is that before the latest changes it was no point even using slam on instant proc, but now with the changes its valid again, but still only slightly as far as i can conclude.

There may be several opinions, but anyone that actually bother to spend some hours on a dummy will figure out what works the best and not.

nuf said

While I'm certainly appreciative of the merits of actual testing over math-based conjecture, the unfortunate truth is that a target dummy just doesn't do a great job in simulating a raid environment. Take what you're seeing there with a grain of salt, as your rage generation, movement requirements, raw stats, and most importantly, focus are going to be different when you're actually raiding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thegreatme

On an exact time-line:

0.0 CS
1.5 BT
3.0 RB
4.5 BT
6.0 Slam
7.5 BT
9.0 RB
10.5 BT
12.0 Slam
13.5 BT
15.0 RB
16.5 BT
18.0 Slam
19.5 BT
21.0 go to 0.0 (CS)

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Not tested on Beta to be honest but:
Would it make sense to wait 0.5sek after the 18.0 Slam and then use CS? Delay CS 1sek could result in a lose of one CS or more CS when the fightime is long enough or am i wrong?

You don´t delay CS for slam but for BT. Since BT is on a 3s CD you couldn´t use it earlier even if you skipped that slam. And completely sacreficing a BT for that 1s of earlier CS wouldn´t compensate for the lost BT damage, I suppose.

But delaying the slam at 18s could have another benefit:
If you delay that slam to after CS you will have a better chance of filling all GCDs while CS Debuff is up. If you use the slam ob 18s (given it procced) then use CS and then you don´t get another slam proc for the time of the active CS debuff, you could actually lose som damage.

Sounds like a candidate for some numbercrunching.