Ret in 4.0.1
With the lack of Inquisition until level 81 and zero mastery on current content gear (not even a 20 Mastery gem to replace the Fractured Cardinal Ruby Armor Pen gem), my initial impressions on the PTR were that Retribution and to some extent Protection are going to be terrible until Cataclysm comes out. Is there a way we can compensate for the lack of Mastery and Inquisition in order to continue raiding content without doing terrible DPS?
The Mastery is going to give Retribution faster holy power generation but with Inquisition buffing Holy damage by 30% in Cataclysm, not to mention not having a full talent tree that will be effective for complete buffs to our abilities. I have considered reforging some of the haste on my gear to Mastery, since in 4.0.1 I will probably have about 800 haste rating when the gear with ArP changes to haste. While this might help remedy the holy power generation a tiny bit, I can't see it being effective without reducing some damage in the process as well, or global cooldown's and whatnot.
All the classes are going to be going through some severe growing pains, it isn't a Retribution specific problem. "Terrible" DPS is likely to be based on current numbers, not in relation to other classes at patch time.
I expect you will see arbitrary buffs or encounter changes to correspond with the patch so heroic ICC content doesn't become impossible.
If you would have a complete 80 spec, getting those last 5 talent points would be rather dull, wouldn't it?
I been playing around with ret on ptr, and i found haste a great stat, and i even tok that judgment talent in holy for more haste. What this does is allow me to use crusader strike every 3secs, meaning i rarely had a free gcd. I also reforged alot of my extra expertise to mastery, but didnt find it as helpful as haste (it didnt scale very well for some reason , perhaps a bug).
In toc 25 gear ilevel 245, which is all you get as a premade on ptr i pulled 5k (burst 7k) dps (no buffs) on the level 80 dummy, my templars were hitting for up to 20k, with icc hc gear i imgaine you looking at up to 35k.
1. haste and strength is best stats at 80
2. reforge any wasted hit and expertise in to haste or mastery
3. try to time zealotry with avenging wrath for crazy burst (hamme of wrath dont hit very hard anymore compared to your other moves so dont worry about wasting that)
4. make a mouseover macro for word of glory (selfless healer gives bonus to damage), for when you want an extra oomph, but dont try to keep it up all the time.
5. take the judgemnet talent in holy it makes a huge diff to crusader strike cd.
6, never miss the free templars or waste your holy powers. if you do this right occasionly you will get 3 , full holy power templars verdict in a row, thats alot of dps! ret dps is now all about getting as many templars as you can for single target and ds for aoe.
7. forget consecration, for single target you wont have spare gcd, if you geared correctly.
8. Try your best to find the templars verdict glyph (15% extra damage), its rare on ptr, but if you can get it say hello to one shotted rogues :P( i didnt get it, ,no one had it)
9. glyphs, Crusader strike or Seal of truth (means you can reforge extra expertise to haste), TV, and judgement
8. you never goo oom, with normal rotation, you wont even need dp.
Imo the new single target ret priority goes like this...
1. judgement that procs the haste (once every minute)
2. crusader strike for generating holy power or the free TV from talents
3. full power templars verdict from 3 holy power
4. exorcism ( yeah this does generate HP, so dont waste that HP by using it when u at 3 hp already)
5. normal judgement
6. free gcd consecration or holy wrath (not needed if you have low cd crusader strike and loads of mastery)
1. pop wings.
crusader strike and tv (making sure not to miss any free tvs aswell), over and over (make sure you already have hasted judgements up before you do this)
How much haste is required for a 3 second cooldown CS?
I'll check the exact number in a bit ( i remember the % it said 19% in my character sheet), but to get that i needed the buff from judgement, and it wasnt exactly 3 secs, it was about 3.3 s, but with icc gear, 3 sec will be easily attainable even without reforging im sure. Cause of the removal of ApR, haste seems to be everywhere. I didnt gem haste at all though, on my premade, was just using the full t9 25ma gear (expertise reforged to haste).
Originally Posted by Pyrea
You are probably looking at around 650 haste for that then, I have 575 for 17.54% haste on live, with the changes I will probably get close to 20%. I will reforge some gear that has hit on it to mastery since I am over the cap at the moment.
O_o I'm sitting at nearly 1000 haste rating on my retri gear right now, although I will be losing 100 when I swap bloodfall for the marrowgar axe when the patch makes agility weapons pretty much useless and another 60ish from the leather belt. I have my retribution gear equipped in my armory profile right now.
I am also wondering how much better deathbringer's will will become when it gets 3.7% crit on it instead of armor pen. I will definitely be losing out on crit when the patch goes live.
Yea crit is really low for everyone across the board now :S
Originally Posted by Pyrea
DBW will probably become 2nd BIS unless Sharpened Twilight Scale's proc and having a higher crit rating can make up for the transformation buffs which I doubt, and whether all 3 different procs can make up for the haste bonus on the War Token trinket that a lot of Ret Paladins are using right now. DBW's procs are 300 for haste, strength and crit I believe from the heroic version. Crit values are dropping because the amount of rating required for 1% is being changed for all classes I believe.
Originally Posted by Pyrea
OOh yeah Templars verdict glyph is now available on ptr for 11g!! GOGOGO before they all sell out (brill server). It made a huge diff to my dps, i gained an extra 800 dps! Also i managed to stalk a shadowmourne weilding ret pala with bis gear to see what diff his gear made to dps. he was attacking the heroic dummy and recount had him at 7-9k dps ( he only just barely got 9k for a sec, mostly stayed around 7-8k) self buffed, he hadn't reforged anything, i have no idea what glyphs he was using and if he understood the new priority system for eg, i stalked another SM wielding ret pala and he barley managed 5k dps on a level 70 dummy ( i could tell he was struggling with the new system), i tried talking to him to find out why his dps was so low ( i didn't actually say it that way, i simply asked him what glyphs he was using and if he wanted some from me), but he didnt reply :S.
PS my dummy stalking showed me there is currently a huge disparity between melle dps and caster dps. No idea why, but no melle dps can break 9kdps on heroic dummy regardless of gear(exception being assassination rogue and maybe unholy dk, they doing nice at the moment but still behind casters), where as regular icc geared casters are smashing out 10-15k dps easily. Boomkins and locks seem to be doing the most dummy damage from what i can tell, where this one ilevel 264 boomkin was doing 14k dps sustained on heroic dummy self buffed. Not sure how hunters are doing but i do recall their pets doing silly damage at some point lol ,(check ret vs pet on utube for a chuckle)
"recount had him at 7-9k dps ( he only just barely got 9k for a sec, mostly stayed around 7-8k) self buffed"
Comments like those make me think people don't quite understand what sustained DPS means, or how to measure it.
were the boomchickens doing 15k over a 6 minute duration or just when they had popped their cooldowns and dropped combat after 30 seconds?
with all the current Ret itemization from ICC, you should have enough haste to get close to the 3 second Crusader Strike CD before the talent proc. 1023 haste is the magic number to get CS down to 3 seconds. I think with the change to the badge cloak, I will go back to it over the heroic Saronite Gargoyle's Cloak that I have now due to it having more strength and I can reforge the crit to haste since it seems to me that crit value is dead for a while.
Probabaly with cds then i guess i didnt watch him for more than about 45 secs. I assume then he would be at 12k sustained over 6 minutes.
Originally Posted by Pyrea
huh? i never said sustained dps for the ret guy, i said for boomkin (which i later explained in above post, it might not have been), was trying to give general dps margin, from lowest to highest, how on earth can i get an accurate sustained dps number from spying lol. Take the numbers for what you will, im just reflecting what i witnessed, if you want more accuracy make a character on ptr and post results.
Originally Posted by Edgewalker
You guys current have the zealotry proc wrong. CS > TV repeating isn't the way to do. This is actually making you miss out on alot of DPS. Here's my proof. I wrote up a whole guide on Ret for 4.0.1, and it includes my results (detailed recount results) with what I'm about to explain.
Now I'll explain. Hammer of Wrath has been proven to hit much harder, and crit more often then TV, but when you hit Hammer of Wrath with Zealotry active, it doesn't consume holy power, so TV is still very important to hit.
If you're VERY close to haste cap, and mashing buttons fast, your rotation every time you pop zealotry will be as such.
HoW > CS > TV > CS > HoW > TV > CS > HoW (If you're fast enough with key spamming to get a third one in) > TV
If HoL doesn't proc, this will be your preferred rotation for the entirity of Zealotry. When you use this rotation, you are taking in account for the soonest possible time to use HoW without losing out on any dps. I was able to burst 12-13k dps at max using this rotation, averaging about 10-11k burst.
If you have questions or are just lookin for an easy guide in general to learn how to play ret in general, a ton of info is in my video.
You should only be using other spells when CS and TV are on CD when Zealotry is up. I got heroic DBW last night and when it procs haste, it's insane, I get 2.83 CS CD's and pop everything I got and can push 7k on a target dummy. Prior to that in raid I was only hitting 10.5k on Saurfang 25 HM. I would say that the change in buffs no longer stacking has something to do with the DPS loss, but casters are currently hitting much harder then most melee classes, however Ghostcrawler has said that will be changing shortly.
Something else ret needs to know is that getting haste capped is key for your rotation. Haste as far as I know is as important as str before ur haste capped. the cap is 1014.
Getting a 2.83 CS cooldown is overdoing it really, since if you hit CS, then one other ability, once you hit 3 seconds, the CS cooldown will be up after that 2nd ability.
For Zealotry with Avenging Wrath, the Rotation is as such.
"HoW > Filler > Filler > Filler" and repeat. The fillers are CS or TV, but which one you need to hit will vary if you have a HoL proc, or if you hit TV before your next HoW. With this, you should be able to hit HoW 4 times...and HoW on average when it crits hits for 22-24k damage, and it crits about 75+ percent of the time, where TV only crits about 30 percent of the time.
Despite the crit difference, I think you'll still do more damage by using CS-TV-CS-TV, with double TV's whenever you get a proc.
Originally Posted by Armadyl
I'll test it out tomorrow.