its the tanks fault

Heroics are is the place to gear up unless you expect some to run thru all the previous raids to gear up, and in that case you should take the time out of your busy busy day to run them thru those raids as many times as it takes to gear them.. Oh but wait, since you dont have an extra 5 minutes to waste in a heroic you dont have time to runs those same people thru the older raids.
It's called a group effort people. The tank is in charge, let him pull unless you can solo the place without stopping to heal yourself. If you severely out gear the tank, so be it. That gives you no right to pull for him unless you think pulling raid bosses before the tanks is a good thing.
Yes the tank should be trying to keep aggro on the whole pack of mobs instead of just one or 2, and the tank has to learn how to do that properly. It would be preferable for that tank to learn to do so with a guild group if it's their first tank.
In short, don't pull before the tank EVER!. It is not your job. If you are so constrained on time that you have to finish a 20 minute instance in 15 minutes then maybe you should wait til you have a lil bit more time.

No, their not. And anyone who says that it is should take it back.

The LFG is used by people who want to farm badges. NOOOOOBODY wants to go to a 5 man and have a tank that actually needs gear from there.

If you still need gear from a 5 man heroic, there is nothing wrong with that. But you have two choices;

1) Do the easy thing and get yourself a group and go together. Spam in trade like the good ole days for a team so that everyone knows what they are getting

or

2) Have the EXACT same problem that the OP is having now.

You might not LIKE that this is the way it is.... but... it is.

I really don't agree with the attitude in which "you pull it, you tank it". I see it as a chance to improve myself, that practice from running 5 man with crazy dps helps me improve myself and do what I do better. Do I like these people? No. But I don't stop doing my job because I don't like some dps that pulls from me. Like someone said before it's a chance for you to show how awesome you are.

Back to the OP. . .

I see you followed my advice on the spec, and lost the AP gems, but the 20 crit gems baffle me. As a warrior, the only gems you use are +strength for DPS, +stam for tanking. Proper rotation and use of your abilities generates more threat than any amount of gemming you can do.

A solid 5 man rotation for AoE - Charge -> Thunderclap. . . take a few steps back and wait for the pack to collapse in front of you -> Shockwave -> Revenge + Cleave -> Shield Slam + Cleave -> Thunderclap. After this opener, keep revenge, thunderclap, Shield slam and shockwave on cooldown. Keep Cleave queued and weave in devastates if you dont have any shinier button to press. I use Tuskarr's Vitality on boots, and charge at every pack to give myself valuable extra time to gain threat ahead of the DPS (Hint -> change your boot enchant)

Most mobs will be dead by the 1st rotation, and if not, any left should be stuck to you like glue.

Single Target (bosses) - Charge -> Shield Slam -> Revenge -> Devastate is your opener. This will give you a solid lead on DPS. Keep heroic strike queued, and SS, revenge and shockwave on CD. Weave in devastate on free GCDs.

I am with the rest of the camp that at many times it can be the fault of the DPS ("where did those extra packs come from? I only hit Starfail!!"), but only if the tank is doing his job properly.

OP- now try out these AoE and single target rotations with your proper new spec, and let us know how things work for you.

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Originally Posted by uglie

In short, don't pull before the tank EVER!. It is not your job. If you are so constrained on time that you have to finish a 20 minute instance in 15 minutes then maybe you should wait til you have a lil bit more time.

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I'm so far into 'you tank it you pull it' that i will let misdirecting hunters pull agro and die after they've misdirected to me. I miss the day when i could just click off misdirect and watch them die, but i suppose that's why they got rid of that. I'm not for the sit down shut up and watch them die, a warning is in order imo, but if the warning is ignored then they can die. And as for the opposite Arguement of 'it's challenging and makes me a better tank' I say because i can pull it back doesn't mean i should pull it back, If they want to pull then they should have rolled a tank. I Absolutely hate People who cant wait that extra five sec for me to pull. I can see the argument for pulling faster but at the heart of the matter is no matter how fast you pull 2/5 groups will have someone who thinks the group could go faster, and will attempt to make it so.

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Originally Posted by Unger

No, their not. And anyone who says that it is should take it back.

The LFG is used by people who want to farm badges. NOOOOOBODY wants to go to a 5 man and have a tank that actually needs gear from there.

If you still need gear from a 5 man heroic, there is nothing wrong with that. But you have two choices;

1) Do the easy thing and get yourself a group and go together. Spam in trade like the good ole days for a team so that everyone knows what they are getting

or

2) Have the EXACT same problem that the OP is having now.

You might not LIKE that this is the way it is.... but... it is.

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Your statement contradicts itself. Everyone is there to farm for badges but no one wants to be there with someone that needs badges. So I'm assuming that in all your raids (especially the new raid of the xpac) that everyone already out gears it and you won't take anyone that still needs gear/ badges from there?
I personally have leveled and geared 2, soon to be 3 tanks, and a healer through the LFG tool. Yes at first a couple of drops i would still need, but for the most part it's all about farming for badges. Key phrase there being " farming for badges"

It is everyone's job to do there job properly. Meaning that unless you are the tank, you are to not pull. Because that extra set of mobs that you just pulled, just might kill you then go kill the tank or the healer and now your group wiped and recovering from that wipe will take longer than letting that one pack sit there.
Patience is a virtue even in a game.

To this point I have found players that say "my main is a tank" are the worst to deal with. You can never pull fast enough, or big enough or hold aggro enough for them. I have geared up a fair amount over the past few weeks, but I always check gear score of all the dps and the healer at the start of a run. If I have a 2.5-3k GS healer, I am going to pull smaller at first to judge how well he is keeping up, or if 2 of the 3 dps are new to heroics I will do the same. I am constantly amazed by the people that get mad when things "take forever" and I check my dbm and it was 8 seconds longer then my record time. I am to the point now that I think 50% of the people playing only care about themselves, and they have a standard that only elite players can live up to. My own guild even says it. "I ran with a tank that pulled this whole room and didn't lose aggro on a single mob." Later I find out he had a 6100 GS, how can I compete with my 4400 GS? How can I be expected to?

To the OP, personally I always try to hold aggro, if for no other reason then two wrongs don't make a right. Letting a dps die doesn't teach him a lesson, he is probably to stupid to learn. I am there to get my Triumph emblems and move on, maybe meet some good people, but probably not. I totally understand your frusration. You are fixing your spec and gems, do your best and if that isn't good enough, well hell, you've done all you can. They can always kick you if they are that unhappy. One of my favorite things is a group that wants to skip as many bosses as possible. I understand that some might not need Triumph emblems, but damn, are they so self absorbed that they can't take 5 mins to help everyone in the group that does need them? Atleast as the tank I can just not go on till them come back, but the dps that have to wait in Q for 15-20 mins just to watch a tank skip half the bosses can't be happy. Maybe this is more of a social problem then a wow problem, we see the same thing happen in real life all the time. So many people can only say "me". Enough of my ranting, good luck!

Zalvered, I have quite the opposite experience. See, my main is a tank. When I see someone struggle with something, do something completely wrong or forget something, I try to help them out. Usually, they reply as if I insulted them somehow, and disregard my advice (or the civil tone in which it was offered.)

Things like knowing how to move a ranged mob to you (stand outside his melee range but inside his dead zone and he comes into melee), trying to keep the speed up (not telling people to rush and pull everything, but whispering them that tanking gets a lot easier if you keep combat going without too much hiatus) or doing a proper line of sight pull (which helps a lot against some packs even in UK.) These are all things that new tanks probably don't know, and they should welcome the advice of someone highly experienced in it - not fly into a fit of rage over it.

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Originally Posted by Theotherone

If H HoR is any type of preview, Cata is going to be sooooo miserable in the begining as everyone who learned the game on the "gather them up, AoE them down" paradigm will have to learn the art of cc; God, it's going to be a wipe fest.

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Yes.. It will be a nightmare.

@gramps, try looking for people on /2, say that you're fresh 80 tank and don't have great gear yet. People that will join you will be more patient and shouldn't pull mobs off you. You should find people that way without problem, because as tank you have instant queue, and they have to wait 3-15 mins depending on role.

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Originally Posted by Zalvered

Later I find out he had a 6100 GS, how can I compete with my 4400 GS? How can I be expected to?

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Because gear score is probably the smallest factor.

I agree with part of what you said, but if you're convinced you "can't compete", then I'm sure you know best.

Warrior tanks that are gearing up are the best class to put against higher geared dps, due to your aoe stun most of the mobs should be dead before the stun wears off.

If a dps complains that he or she pulled agro and died, i just laugh at them and say "then don't pull agro". I can't even see how a person with some basic skills can even die to those mobs however, even a fury tank can be kept alive in heroics.

As for HoR, people fail to single target and feel the need to "must aoe everything once packed up!" those people i personally intentionally, let die several times in a row till they get the message, don't waste a single taunt on them.

Basically what Theo said, protect your healer let scrub dps die.

I pull pretty fast even when gearing up just watching the mana bar, if i'm raged or rune starved and they pull, i will let them tank it.

Might all sound harsh but i'm not going to compensate for those people their incompetence to play correctly, either they can take some punches and pull a mob and soak it fine and if they can't, don't pull agro.

This has been bothering me for a while now. I have several tanks and healers of various comfort levels, and a few DPS toons (which I'm typically awful with, but eh).
What I want to know is why tanks (and to some degree healers) are the only ones expected to focus and "do their job" in a heroic? I've run into quite a few trigger happy DPS in PuGs who lol a lot, pull, and generally pay no attention and goof around. If I ask them to let me pull (if I'm the tank) or try to stop face tanking (if I'm the healer), they typically respond with comments that they're just trying to have some fun. I should just "deal with it" and get my badges and go.
Who decided that DPS are the only ones that get to "have fun" in a heroic?? I already have a job, and it's M-F from 7 AM to 4 PM. WoW is not my job. It's my hobby.
So...the last time somebody told me they were trying to have fun, I started telling them that that's fine -- MY idea of fun is to watch people who pull like that die. They stopped after that.

I agree that people goofing around and doing the unexpected teaches you to be a better tank...
I also believe that it's an unnecessary headache and people could really try to cooperate a little better, or go play a non-MMO.

Sorry for the rant. Actually...come to think of it, not entirely sorry for the rant or I wouldn't have posted it. :/ I kind of had to get that off my chest amongst others who hopefully know what I mean there.

-T.

I feel exactly the same, Thalani. Apart from the fun job bit.

thanks again for all the suggestions. i changed some things up and started to pick up the pace. seems to be working better.

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Originally Posted by Martie

Things like knowing how to move a ranged mob to you (stand outside his melee range but inside his dead zone and he comes into melee), trying to keep the speed up (not telling people to rush and pull everything, but whispering them that tanking gets a lot easier if you keep combat going without too much hiatus) or doing a proper line of sight pull (which helps a lot against some packs even in UK.) These are all things that new tanks probably don't know, and they should welcome the advice of someone highly experienced in it - not fly into a fit of rage over it.

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I for one thank people like you in game. I am always open to suggestions/help. Heck, I learned something from your post. I didn't know about the "dead zone" you mentioned. Ranged mobs are a pain for me if their are more then one. Heroic Throw takes care of one, but then I am left trying to shield bash the other. That is all GCD's that are not gaining aggro on the group right in front of me that dps is aoeing. To be clear. You are saying that their is a distance I can stand away from a caster that will make him move toward me instead of cast even if he is not silenced? I am getting much better with speed now that I don't feel like I will die due to having so little stamina. Leaving mobs behind when they are almost dead and running to the next group is just plain fun.

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You are saying that their is a distance I can stand away from a caster that will make him move toward me instead of cast even if he is not silenced?

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Yep. You can stand at your max melee range, and just back pedal with them, and they will keep taking steps to stay in melee range. You can also stand on top of them, and they will take a few steps back, so you can make them back pedal as well