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Quick question, what is the min. dps required to down Sindragosa?
Putting it another way, if the dps in the raid are pulling less than 5k on normal 10 man Sindragosa is that good enough? IMHO, (in 5.6K gs appropriate gear and above) less than 5k dps really isn't up to scratch, just want a reality check to make sure I'm not being unreasonable.
5.5k for all 6 dps is what we look for to beat the enrage timer.
Personally I think if your raid team isn't pulling 7.5k minimum each on her something is wrong.
You will not kill her in time if you are not averaging at least 5 to 5.5k DPS across 5 DPS. Keep in mind that Unchained Magic can really kill a caster's DPS if they are hit with it back to back, meanwhile the other casters can go all out provided they don't also have the debuff.
If your Melee DPS use Fast weapons (Rogues) they may suffer more of a dps loss because of having to clear their stacks more often then people who attack much slower such as any class which uses either a 2 Hander or 2.60 Main / Off Hands.
Also if your raid is over 5.6k gs then you shouldn't worry. As the rest of the instance the 30% buff gain goes a long way.
Lol that was my question, if every DPS in the raid has over 5.6K gear score, and consistently pull less than 5K DPS on normal 10man Sindragosa is that good enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuwabara
I can understand that DPS for Sindragosa isn't going to be as high as a straight tank and spank due to the movement, the ice blocks and the debuffs etc. but when I see warriors, pallys and warlocks pulling between 3.5 and 4.8k dps consistently then I figure there is something else going wrong - more than just coming to grips with fight mechanics.
In reality 6K dps is no where near that needed it just makes it easier same as all the ICC fights.
If you aren't hitting the enrage timer you don't need more dps but it means the raid has to survive longer which is generally the issue :-)
So is your problem hitting the enrage timer or people failing at the mechanics???
This is one fight casters are not favoured due to the nature of unchained magic and the whole suck the raid in and then she flies around.
If they are pulling 5K on sindi then they are pulling 8-9K on a stand an whack fight which is well within the normal range you would expect.
TBH I have rarely seen the enrage timer most fails are way before that point you only usually see it because dps died in earlier stages.
It's a bit like Prof P fight you always hear pugs say we don't have the DPS for this as raids get creamed by adds in P1. The reality is P1 has no dps check at all we did it with an alt's run with noone doing over 5K. P3 was the dps test but they are failing before they even get there.
Currently we are dying due to the mechanics, and haven't hit the enrage timer, however when we do wipe, Sindy is usually around 20-30% health with 2mins left on the enrage. Using my very dodgy maths at that rate if we executed the last phase correctly (eg. no one dies) we wouldn't be burning the last of the HP in time to beat the timer. It feels like we are scrapping that close to the timer that if the slightest thing goes wrong we wont make it. I've also noticed that the groups dps seems to take a fairly decent nosedive once phase 2 hits as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by uglybbtoo
In normal 10 man Sindragosa has 11,156,000hp and we have 10mins (600 seconds) to burn that hp and while it doesn't sound that bad, it just feels like we are lagging behind.
deleted - screwed up post.
Just using your figures I haven't bothered to check but they sound right
11,156,000 hp / 600 = 18593.333 assuming 5 dps = 3718 dps per person to beat enrage
Which is about what I would have guessed because I know it isnt high its not really a dps fight its a survival. Having said that more dps means less time to survive makes life easier for nubs.
So somethings out with your DPS figures or alot of your raid are well below 4K.
I should say if someone calls out when she is about to go to air eveyone who can dot her should including healers etc you can get alot of free damage on her as she flies if they all do that.
Everyone should have there CD's ready for P2 because you really want to make it as short as possible as it gets very busy.
In progression your first aim is to get to P2 with everyone one alive and all CD's intact so you have lust, brez'es etc available. Until you can do that you are pretty much guaranteed to fail.
We find casters have the biggest learning curve they have to learn to watch unchained magic and deal with the being sucked and turn and run. Melee generally are better at this because they are used to having to change position and so many other bosses req them to run etc it's sort of new for casters and there low HP gives them no room for error. Getting locks to use tele, mages to blink, boomies to go to cat, and priests to shield themself as they get sucked helps immensely and gives them room for errors.
Next stage is to sort out P2 movements as its a continual process they know and have done it all now they have to do it all together and you ahve 1 dps down breaking the IB's and someone who knows to cover for him if the breaker gets IB. If you don't get the continual process sorted yes your dps really suffers even more as you have dps wasting time running or breaking IB's.
I've had a quick look at world of logs and it looks like the average group dps of the groups that kill Sindy is 30,791, while the average group dps of the groups that wipe is 24,578. We were definitely sitting in the 24-26k range for most attempts (of which there were many). One person was consistently hitting 6.5-7k which I wouldn't consider brilliant at this stage of the game, but the other dps were ranging between 3.5-4.5k generally. Like I said, the one thing that was very noticeable was the drop in dps once Sindy hit 35%. So while out group dps may have been 24-26k for the fight, had we survived until the end I'd have expected it to drop quite a bit.
Pickles, my guild's in the same spot. We're running 30k+ for the fight in general, but have too many people die in P3. And DPS isn't a great indicator. I say that because if you're using recount, it's not multiplying DPS * Active Time %.
For example, if a 7k DPS has a 85% uptime for 100 seconds, thats (7000 * 100)*.85 = 595,000 damage
If a 7k DPS has a 60% uptime for 100 seconds that's 455,000 damage.
So it's not just DPS (unless you're calculating effective DPS). And there are several legitimate reasons for lowering eDPS (damage/fight length in seconds rather than DPS via recount which is damage when doing something) - auto-attacking air-phase frost tombs so they don't go down too quickly, being tombed, etc. So even if Recount is showing 6k DPS, the effective DPS is going to be much lower.
Without knowing the makeup of your raid, as mentioned above, fast melee attackers should absolutely be on frost tombs in P3, and probably all melee since they gain a constant stacking buff that can quickly grow unmanagable.
Casters with an ability to remove unchained magic should NEVER stop casting (even if it's AoE instants when moving) unless they're about to be tombed, then they should use whatever they have (e.g. mages' frost tomb) as soon as they're in place for their tombing but before being tombed. Granted, the CD means they can really only do this once in P3, but any break in DPS by an party member is going to make it tough.
I wish I could offer more than that, but we still have people tombing each other, dying to blistering colds, and the like, so take it for what it's worth with a grain of salt for a group that's in the exact same position. Theoretically we have the DPS, but the execution just isn't there for our group.
If you're worrying about dps more than worrying about execution, you're doing it wrong.
Sindragosa is mainly an execution fight. Once all your team knows how to execute it properly, dps will come after that a lot faster. I've seen a team hit the enrage timer. But up until that point they had FINALLY managed to execute it properly. Next try, everybody's dps went up by a huge margin and they got the kill.
People have to watch a ton of debuffs on sindi. Healers have to learn to manage debuffs, iceblocks and keeping up the tank through heavy damage. DPS needs to learn how/when to explode, melee need to learn how long they have to wait and how fast they have to break tombs, etc. They are probably worrying about those things more than their dps/rotations/dot uptimes. And if you push them for dps, they'll start missing out on their execution. Once they get the execution down and you get to enrage with everybody alive, i'll bet you can easily draw out somewhere around 30% increase in dps in your next try.
Fledern,
Do the mages in your group use Frost Tomb only during lulls (air phase, about to be tombed) in the fighting or right after unchained magic is applied?
I guess I'm getting frustrated in general. The DPS issue has come up a few times on other fights too. We're at that stage where everyone is basically in as good a gear as they are capable of getting (4 pcs t10, gearscores averaging 5.8). While everyone is on an equal playing field gear wise there's always consistently one guy pulling 25% of the raids damage (whatever the fight), while the next closest is usually 17% (that's overall damage not DPS - although it's very similar). It just seems to me that there is something not quite right going on and I can't put my finger on it.
Repeated fails are starting to weight me down and I kind of feel like I'm banging my head against a wall. Ah... there goes the QQ.
I know the feeling. We're in the same spot (I'm the 25% guy, if our Spriest isn't going Disc, he's the 17% guy). Part of it is our setup, not a good fight to be a rogue. But part of it is player performance. Our 2 mages were out damaged (by 33% or more) by a friend of the guild mage today. This, based on everyone's damage in others fights, makes it clear there's something going on, but we can't quite place our finger on it.
Lol, I'm the 25% guy as well. My frustration is that I don't feel like I should be the 25% guy - I just don't think I'm that good. Particularly on fights like Deathbringer - which lets face it, it basically a melee dps target dummy - I really really don't feel like I should still be the 25% guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loganisis
In our guild there are 2 other guys that would blow me away in DPS, but they're so good at healing, we can't give them up ;-) (The Pally very nearly solo healed Fester 25 including the second 3rd inhale - 2 Spriest switched to holy/disc in their spriest gear -- and the other, a druid, solo healed 80% of a DBS10 kill at the 20% buff - long before he had abacus and still doesn't have trauma).
So everytime I get cocky, I just think of the Holy Pally whose Hunter would turn me into the 17% guy (even before he moved him to a truer raiding guild and got things like DBW and late ICC25 drops...)... that helps keep me humble ;-)
But right now, I kid you not, I think we're either approaching or at 100 attempts on Sindragosa and on our most recent attempt I did more damage (ignoring DPS) than the 2 mages in the group combined. On almost every pull I do more total damage to Sindragosa, despite being on Tomb duty all of P3, than anyone else does total damage.
And like you, I know I'm not this much better than everyone else in the group (during P1 when all CDs are popped we're all roughly equal, it's not until the slightest bit of movement...). I want to fix it, I just don't know what's broken to fix... I have ideas, but nothing firm. And it's driving me mad. I'm starting to feel loathing toward my guildies for not having improved their output in the last 3 weeks, who I generally like (none are RL people, only people I've found in the guild) which scares me, because that's not what I want to feel when I see them.
Wow, sorry for turning this into a QQfest. It's just so frustrating to see something going wrong and not being able to fix it.
Who's the raid leader for that run?
Sounds like there might need to be a strong conversations with the people in the run about expectations. Part of DPSing is DPSing while doing the other crap you need to do...tombing, running away from aoes that will 1 shot you, not being retarded & getting cleaved or breathed on...the usual.
Unless those mages are in all greens they need to step up the game and do some damage or hit the road. Set some DPS minimums for bossfight averages (say 6k dps average on the 3 bosses in the first wing + rot & fester). If they aren't there, tell them they are at risk and they either need to fix it or expect to be replaced with some other ranged dps. Same with your melee dps. If they fix it before you replace them, all the better. If they don't...well...are you really going to miss them?
The other part sounds like a strategy issue. Something isn't right if after 100x they haven't gotten their footwork down.
In 10-man sindy, I usually see something between 3.5k-4.5k on recount at the end of the fight for our DPS, and we easily beat the enrage timer.Quote:
Originally Posted by uglybbtoo
Although in another fight, like festergut, they'll instead be hitting 6-9k.
I think we took like maybe 15 to 20 attempts on Sindi over several weeks. We had a lot of issue with DPS and / Or Healers dying to stupid things like Blistering Cold. Once that was taken care of, we just had stupid mistakes in phase 3 where one person would stand just a bit to close to someone else... and freeze 2-3 people. Once that was worked out we were able to beat her.
The Enrage is 10 minutes, and that's fairly generous provided you don't slack when she's on the ground (since you can't really hurt her in the air) You lose DPS time every time she lifts off, and the longer you take to get her to 35% the less actual time you have to damage her (since she will have more air phases).
My own raid does 8-10k on Festergut, etc but hovers around 5-6k on Sindi. However we tend to run caster heavy so Unchained Magic was pretty brutal for us. The biggest thing youc an stress is people to not die. If they don't die, they have higher DPS uptime. If they die, then their DPS stops and even if battle rezzed is a fraction of what it was when they were fully buffed.
If you are dealing more total damage then 2 mages combined, there is a major issue with the Mages. Even with Unchained Magic they shouldn't be that far behind unless they just totally stop casting for 20 seconds every time they get it. They can continue to cast, they just need to pace themselves so they don't kill themselves once they finally stop.
Either way your issues are DPS and Execution, and I would start with a hard look at who is slacking in terms of Avoidable Damage Taken and How much Total Damage they are doing (factoring in Unchained Magic and Chilled to the Bone). Those will be the best indicators of what to fix first.