Need help with spec for new rogue

Hello, I recently hit 80 on this rogue and have a few questions.
1. Is there a sticky for rogues like there is a sticky for DK's as in Satorri's awesome comprehensive guid to DK tanking.
2. Which spec is best for raiding Mut vs. Combat.
3. If there is a sticky for rogues like the one for Dk's can some one link it so i can go and find the answers to my questions myself so i can learn it better.
4. I am currently not dual spec'ed but plan on it in the next couple of days. I am going to get a combat spec since I just obtained the frost giants cleaver and night time, both one handed axes. can someone look at my mut spec and give advice there. I am not sure what i am doing wrong, but i find myself constantly waiting on energy to build so i can do my attacks. Is it that I have gotton so used to playing a dk and warrior and always having gobs of rage and runic power to have to dump that i dont have the art of waiting down yet or is it part of the rogue style of play that you have to slow down in order to speed up so to speak to let your energy build. Is there something i am missing in my spec that will give me more energy so i wont have to wait on it to build so i can do damage. Thank you in advance for your help.
My armory:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Korgath&cn=Furrytaco

Rogues are supposed to be energy-limited.

This is a great guide for starting out. There's a ton of info over at Elitist Jerks if you're willing to search for it.

Yeah, get used to energy starvation. Lumines has pointed you to what I consider everything you need to know for level 80 rogues, and it's the sticky you are looking for, just not on this site.

Unlike Rage or Mana, you don't have a lot of it, and the only way to get it back is to not use it and wait for it to regen, or through very tiny gains. Combat gets it through offhand attacks or popping adrenaline rush. Mutilate can get more through crits and sometimes finishing moves (EJ recommends only a few points into relentless strikes, and they are correct), and most importantly, a 30% regen buff during cloak and for a bit shortly thereafter (which you regain by recloaking out of combat or vanishing mid fight).

1) Elitist Jerks has all the info you'll need. Follow the link that Lumines gave you. When in doubt, consult that thread. If you're confused, read it again.
2) Both Mutilate and Combat are viable specs. Ultimately, it comes down to the player. If I had to pick one or the other, I'd say go for Combat since it's more versatile in most ICC fights, and the choice of spec will ultimately affect your gear and gem choices.
3) See #1.
4) Your problem with energy that you're facing right now comes from a lack of understanding of class mechanics. For Assassination, you get energy back from Focused Attacks, and for Combat, you get it from Combat Potency. I'm not sure what your Assassination weapons are like, but for combat, you need to have a fast offhand. Rogues are one of the prime classes where gearscore means very little, and even an ilvl 200 sword/axe that's 1.5 speed will likely give you better overall DPS than Nighttime.

Rogues are all about maintaining a maximal buff/debuff uptime. You need to manage your energy and combo points appropriately in order to maintain this, and it's not nearly as cut and dry of a rotation as you'd find with a warrior or DK. Assassination requires a little more finesse in order to maintain this properly than Combat does, but the general idea is that you will almost always be energy starved. Having a full energy bar means you're doing something wrong.

The guides on Elitist Jerks assume a certain level of gear in order to perform well. The 51/18/2 spec that you see running around is not (I repeat, NOT) optimal for a fresh 80 rogue (and in these days, you're still a fresh 80 with the gear you have). The Assassination spec you have is also incorrect. Vigor is bad for PvE. Aggression does nothing for Assassination builds, and Relentless Strikes is better than Opportunity. Also, if you're going to go Assassination, pick up Fleet Footed. Never underestimate the value of getting to your target or out of fire quicker. Go for the old 51/13/7 build for Assassination, or 15/51/5 for Combat the until you start to hit the point where you have too much energy (you'll know when this is).


Also, your first Frost badge choices should be the Hermkul War Token, and then 2pc T10. After that, you can consider offpieces if they're good upgrades. Secondly, stop it with the expertise gemming. Having played a warrior and a DK before, you should know that you only need 26 in order to push dodge off the hit table. 39 is far too much as combat, and means that you can free up 2 points in the combat tree.

lol it looks like someone dragged you through icc the day you dinged 80, meaning nice gear in some slots and greenies in others lol.

What yiu need to do whil you wait for icc reset is run the icc 5 mans over and over , till you get the trinket from FoS hc, and the of hand sword from HoR hc, since nightime is a mainhand weapon for comnbat, you need a fster one. However if you ever pvp as comnbat, two slow weapons is the way to go, to try and kill people inside of a KS.

Yes to answer your question the guild did drag me along on an icc 10 man a few days after i hhit 80 thats where i got the back that helped put me way over exp cap, I am going to take out all exp gems and put in agility. I will also tweek both specs to align up with the ones linked here ...again thank you so much for the advice and the link to the elitist jerks thread. I have since gotton NeS and am working on getting enough badges for the Herkulum war token, then I will get the 2pc T10 from there.

Thank you
Furrytaco

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Originally Posted by penademuerte

Yes to answer your question the guild did drag me along on an icc 10 man a few days after i hhit 80 thats where i got the back that helped put me way over exp cap, I am going to take out all exp gems and put in agility. I will also tweek both specs to align up with the ones linked here ...again thank you so much for the advice and the link to the elitist jerks thread. I have since gotton NeS and am working on getting enough badges for the Herkulum war token, then I will get the 2pc T10 from there.

Thank you
Furrytaco

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If you gem agility, you gonna need to regem again to attack power later on, and then one again for ApR at a later date. Better to just gem all attack power, and apr till soft cap, forget gemming agi. If even getting soft cap is too hard, dw about it , and gem some starks in yellow instead of trying to get soft cap till you get more gear. Dont waste time on herkumi totem yet, instead run normal toc over and over till you get banner of victory, its a fantastic trinket and goes better with combat at your gear level, spreadsheets will confirm this too, even though herkumi has more DPS points on its own. If you really wann buy something with badges consider, either the belt or cape.

Won't use elitist jerks.

On top of attitude, he makes several (rather basic) errors.

That his site appeals to many doesn't speak highly of the crowd; either in manners or critical thinking.

On topic, I've been thinking about gemming my rogue for haste.

On topic, I've been thinking about re-gemming my rogue for haste.

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Originally Posted by Krays

If you gem agility, you gonna need to regem again to attack power later on, and then one again for ApR at a later date. Better to just gem all attack power, and apr till soft cap, forget gemming agi. If even getting soft cap is too hard, dw about it , and gem some starks in yellow instead of trying to get soft cap till you get more gear. Dont waste time on herkumi totem yet, instead run normal toc over and over till you get banner of victory, its a fantastic trinket and goes better with combat at your gear level, spreadsheets will confirm this too, even though herkumi has more DPS points on its own. If you really wann buy something with badges consider, either the belt or cape.

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If he's going to put aside something to buy with badges, he should still go for the T10 2pc bonus first. On top of the stats it provides, the bonus is worth about 250EP, and most people have run the numbers to find that we've never had a set bonus that's as valuable as that (rogue set bonuses have been pretty sad in WotLK).

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six

On top of attitude, he makes several (rather basic) errors.

That his site appeals to many doesn't speak highly of the crowd; either in manners or critical thinking.

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Who is 'he' that you're speaking of? And what are these 'basic errors'? Making claims that something is wrong is easy. Proving it is a whole other story.

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Originally Posted by Zxian

If he's going to put aside something to buy with badges, he should still go for the T10 2pc bonus first. On top of the stats it provides, the bonus is worth about 250EP, and most people have run the numbers to find that we've never had a set bonus that's as valuable as that (rogue set bonuses have been pretty sad in WotLK).



Who is 'he' that you're speaking of? And what are these 'basic errors'? Making claims that something is wrong is easy. Proving it is a whole other story.

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Yeah agreed, two set first, i just assumed he would be getting that first anyway, or get it for free from voa. Shoulders and hands ( i got hands from voa, got legs too), was what i got first, simply cause it was cheapest, but he may aswell get helmet (60 badges only and hands for free and legs). Might be better for him to run voa a few weeks first just to see if he gets lucky. Thats what i did.

Ps the bladeborn legs from lw are fantastic. Also OP you never mentioned, what you doing about Off hand? thats really important for you to fix that asap, or you will be gimping your sustained dps. Oh and get banner of victory, ( i know im repeating myself now :P), its a bad boy, just compare it to dbw, and you will see why its so good for its Ilevel.

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Originally Posted by Zxian

Who is 'he' that you're speaking of? And what are these 'basic errors'? Making claims that something is wrong is easy. Proving it is a whole other story.

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I don't need to prove it. We're talking about your decisions, not mine.

Please, continue to use Elitist Jerks, and whatever you do, don't question his results.

The site is, after all, his best effort, and that effort has been, apparently, considerable.

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six

I don't need to prove it. We're talking about your decisions, not mine.

Please, continue to use Elitist Jerks, and whatever you do, don't question his results.

The site is, after all, his best effort, and that effort has been, apparently, considerable.

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Again... who is 'he'? There are several users on Elitist Jerks - it's a guild website afterall.

You said that there were 'several basic errors' regarding the information found on EJ. What are they? If there are several, point some of the more obvious ones out.

I do question people's results. As an engineer IRL, I need to have that mentality. That's why I sat down one day and walked myself through the 'calcs' page of Aldrianna's spreadsheet. When I realized that the calculations looked sound, I started using it to help for my own gearing choices. Furthermore, a second (independently created) spreadsheet available there and a third party Java program give similar simulation results. I'd say that's pretty well verified.

I smell a troll lurking.... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Zxian

I do question people's results.
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I smell a troll lurking....

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As you wish.

The main problem with elitist jerks is inherent to their "application" of the scientific method. They are a case study in why intercourse and exchange between observers should never be limited. Ignoring the practicalities for a moment, the results of that basic premise at elitist jerks is beyond my ability to calculate.

In example, I give you this exchange, quoted straight from their website. The subject doesn't matter. It is indicative of the very opposite of the scientific method; in fact, it reminds me of a Middle Age Catholic priest explaining why obedience to the church was a necessity.

"Why . . . . ?"

"Because it's better."

Elitist jerks is attempting to do two contradictory things. They are attempting to discuss and share information without being bothered to share information. (I suggest you don't answer that they're attempting to limit information exchange to their guild, or to "trained" or "qualified" observers. That would be so much worse. I'm being kind.)

They remind me of my son, back when he was around 21 or 22, about halfway through his training, when he knew some of the words, but didn't understand the principles, nor why his results were flawed. He was as certain as they are that his new, fresh look (read tiny glimpse) at the available data (read the tiny slice that he had had time to find) would lead him to miraculous breakthroughs, (read the same mistakes and dead ends that the rest of us had visited) and he was as arrogant (read foolish) as they are about denigrating the careful work that others had done.

The only upside to that stage of development is energy and, perhaps, lack of frustration.

So, there you go. My opinion.

What I suggest is this: go back and read the sections of elitist jerks dearest to your heart, and bear in mind these points. Watch for any effect this attitude may have on their conclusions.

After that, if you're still interested, apply a rigorous course of examination, looking for pure, theoretical scientific method in what elitist jerks claim to have done.

The mistake I found convinced me to ignore elitist jerks. Your milage, of course, may vary, in which case I urge you, as I did above, to continue to use them.

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six

As you wish.

"Why . . . . ?"

"Because it's better."

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Way to paraphrase.

I came across that quote too. It was in a quick question-quick answer style list, and it's a followup question to taking one of two talents. The bit you quoted intentionally did not go into the math behind it.

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six

"Why . . . . ?"

"Because it's better."

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I think you mis-understand why they have answers such as that in the stickies. It's because the attitude is that the information is present elsewhere on the site if you're willing to look for it. It is not "we know what the answer is, but we're not sharing it with you peasants", it's "the information is there if you want to dig for it, but we're not going to hold your hand if you're too lazy to do so yourself".

If your issue was that the search function is inadequate for that attitude, then fair enough, but I don't think your criticism is really fair.

Yup, we've come full circle. We're back to "you guys absolutely should use elitist jerks.".

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six

"Why . . . . ?"

"Because it's better."

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The problem with this type of answer when it comes to WoW Stickies is not the fault of the people writing the simple guides - it's the fault of the players who can't be bothered to put in the time to figure things out properly. I can't count the number of threads I've replied to here and on other forums (and to guildmates in game) who mindlessly gear up their characters. The EHP thread here on Tankspot and the 'avoidance vs EHP' debate (which I never want to see again) is a prime example of how math and arguments has been refuted by 'opinions' and 'feelings'.

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six

Elitist jerks is attempting to do two contradictory things. They are attempting to discuss and share information without being bothered to share information. (I suggest you don't answer that they're attempting to limit information exchange to their guild, or to "trained" or "qualified" observers. That would be so much worse. I'm being kind.)

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Where do you have any proof that EJ is hiding information from us?

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six

They remind me of my son, back when he was around 21 or 22, about halfway through his training, when he knew some of the words, but didn't understand the principles, nor why his results were flawed. He was as certain as they are that his new, fresh look (read tiny glimpse) at the available data (read the tiny slice that he had had time to find) would lead him to miraculous breakthroughs, (read the same mistakes and dead ends that the rest of us had visited) and he was as arrogant (read foolish) as they are about denigrating the careful work that others had done.

...

So, there you go. My opinion.

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You still haven't really disproven anything here. Are you sure you understand the math behind rogue mechanics? Rogue mechanics and playstyle are not that complicated (compared to other classes such as Frost DKs or feral druids), and as I mentioned before - three independent sources giving very similar results.

An opinion without proof (the kind of scientific method proof you keep mentioning in your arguments) is just that - an opinion. Until you PROVE otherwise, I'll keep working with the math that's been verified by a community (note... multiple people, not a 'he').

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six

What I suggest is this: go back and read the sections of elitist jerks dearest to your heart, and bear in mind these points. Watch for any effect this attitude may have on their conclusions.

After that, if you're still interested, apply a rigorous course of examination, looking for pure, theoretical scientific method in what elitist jerks claim to have done.

The mistake I found convinced me to ignore elitist jerks. Your milage, of course, may vary, in which case I urge you, as I did above, to continue to use them.

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Who said anything about 'dear to my heart'? I really thing you need to reconsider the point of view, and the advice, that I've been giving.

Have you ever taken a look at the 'calcs' page of either Aldrianna's or Mavannas' spreadsheets? There's about 34,000 cells of calculations in that sheet, all working out a proper, statistical representation of how a rogue can be properly played.

http://www.kwikpiks.com/files/1/EJ_SS_calcs_thumb.png

I recommend the EJ guides and posts because they have been argued and refuted. I've had a number of posts deleted and 'warnings' issued from the EJ community because they had already been asked and answered. I simply hadn't taken the time to properly search for the question I had. The Pocket Guide (which is meant to be an abridged version of how to play a rogue) has 66 pages - that's 1650 posts from all sorts of people. The ones who know the material, the ones who are asking questions, and the ones who are answering them. Now... if you want to continue going on about 'EJ is hiding the real information', please go right ahead. I'm not going to stop you from digging yourself a hole.


How about you answer a direct question: What if I were to recommend that people use iDPS in order to determine gear and spec questions?

I have a much better idea.

For the third time, please, continue using elitist jerks.

Because it's better.

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six

Because it's better.

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Better than...?

You've still not given a solid reason why people should be suspicious of EJ. I would be extremely curious to see what the specific mistake you found was that's left you with such strong feelings about what's widely considered (not a measure of validity, I know) to be the best location of general DPS theorycrafting. Of course, it's easier to make bold assertions about basic errors without spelling them out, right? ;)

Heck I didnt know i was opening such a big can of worms. I have been drug through ICC 25 now thanks to the guild and have remedied the off hand issue with Heartpierce. I have gotton my ashen verdict ring and the iLevel 264 off marrowgar, now just have to replace the hands, head, neck, and trinket, and upgrade the legs and belt. Thank you guys for offering your opinions and giving of advice, i really appreciate it. I understand that playing a rogue properly is something that takes time to learn, but I am trying. I will change out those agility gems for attack power. Thanks again.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Korgath&cn=Furrytaco