Regarding Hold The Line:
Whilst Kojiyama is correct that it's a mathematically weak mitigation talent, I've found on beta that it's a very noticeable damage/threat talent. With 100% uptime on it, it's 10% crit for two talent points, which is insanely good value. I view it as a mandatory threat talent now. Reforging Dodge/Mastery into Parry for mitigation and keeping Parry slightly higher than dodge (so as not to get raped by diminishing returns) should keep our parry at about 20% or so. 20% chance per hit on getting 10 seconds of that buff is going to be pretty high uptime anyway, and should be up constantly when tanking 2+ mobs.
Until Mastery becomes the only viable thing to stack for mitigation, I'll be focussing Parry as my primary avoidance stat simply due to the synergy with HTL - I see HTL as being Prot's version of "Reckoning" for protadins, rather than a mitigation talent. The 10% critical block is a freebie.
Thanks Sapp for experimenting with that. I suspected the same if the uptime was good enough. +10% crit to everything for 2 talent points with high uptime is gravy.
It doesn't appear to require you to use HS sequentially, in a row. Haven't tested, but I was under the impression that mixing Dev, Rev, and SS in between won't cancel the effect.
Originally Posted by World
Well, that's all quite true. I still take Hold the Line in all my builds anyhow.
The most 'commonly picked' talent that I am likely to skip is Blood and Thunder. It's best for Arms Warriors, and unless you really, really, really need the minor AoE TPS increase, it actually is not very good at all. Until Blizzard increases Rend's damage with 1H weapons significantly, it just isn't strong enough.
I actually wouldn't be too surprised if I ended up with a build like this:
Just for general-purpose running around without having to respec. Some of the threat talents will depend on the final balance, though. It's hard to say quite yet which ones will be the best overall until we get the final figures and run some numbers.
BnT is awkward to make use of as it stands. My feeling so far is that I need as much snap threat as I can get, and I'm not sure I'm comftable spending 2 GCDs getting BnT rolling early on. I'll probably still take it because incite is the other option. Thunderstruck works really well for AoE, 3 TC fit very nicely between each Shockwave CD.
Take away Cruelty and you got my exact spec Koji.
That + Glyph of Cleave seems like more than enough for AoE tanking without sacrifising singletarget threat.
Working wonders for me atleast.
Are you guys finding much use for Concussion Blow? Even in Wrath I never used that for the stun, only for the threat, and with a 30s cd it's not that much threat anyway.
Shield Bash, Heroic Throw (talented), Shockwave, Charge, and Intercept have been more than enough interupts, even in H HoR.
Is Conc Blow worth taking for 5mans and other circumstances where Vigilance is weak?
Which glyphs would you prefer for a spec like that?
Originally Posted by Kojiyama
War Academy > Incite.
Originally Posted by Kojiyama
I'ld take War Academy over Incite because it is always there, even on the first HS. If you can spam HS it's relatively similar damage increase, but WA just provides more certainty.
About glyphs: You take the obvious major glyphs (Dev, Rev & SS) and as minor I'll probably go for Sunder, Cleave & Thunderclap, although last one is a the first one I'll switch out when I need it.
WarTotem - I understand the reasoning, but that isn't why prot warriors should take Incite. To get past the 1st tier in prot, you have to spend 5 points. Toughness is the obvious choice for 3 of them, but you still have to spend 2 more, so the choice is between Blood and Thunder or Incite. BnT is very weak for prot warriors, because the 1 handed weapons we use gives rend very low damage. The threat from rend is not worth the global cd, and still is very weak on AoE packs. Incite however is a very nice TPS boost, since we still should have plenty of threat for frequent HS.
Koji - that is exactly what I was planning. I have always wanted piercing howl as prot, but until now, I always felt you had to give up too much out of the spec to get it. Now it is almost a freebie =P
As was stated above, Incite isn't stealing points from War Academy really.
If you aren't getting Blood and Thunder, you have to spend 2 points on Incite anyway. Incite is a lot more reliable with 3 points, so you toss in 1 more point there. Even if War Academy is better due to the Cleave increase (I'm pretty sure Incite is better for Heroic Strike alone), you can't really take it over Incite unless you are getting Blood and Thunder.
Why I'ld take that 1 point in War Academy over Incite:
1) It works on Cleave & Victory Rush. Incite does not.
2) Incite is not reliable, it is still a chance per execute, the chance simply is related to your crit chance.
3) Incite requires HS spam to work, it only works half on the first one, or any HS that had a 6s window before it. (think Sindy)
4) If you gain any crit rating(see below), the value of Incite goes down. WA always gives 5% increase per point, regardless of gear/buffs.
Here is the math:
I used lvl 85 Cataclysm ratings (total agi gain was 3,07%) and 55% Hold the Line uptime with 5% raid buff crit chance. This gave me a total of 13,57% crit chance. I have 0 crit rating and 0,00% base crit chance.
My AP used was 12157 (included Vengeance) and I am wielding BQS.
Neither talent: 6029,49 dmg
2/3 Incite (baseline): 6761,39 dmg
3/3 Incite: 7099,84 dmg (5,006% increase)
2/3 Incite, 1/3 WA: 7099,46 dmg (5,00% increase)
Incite is worth 0,38 damage more for me, or 0,1124..% better for Heroic Strike damage.
But it does not give me any increase in Cleave (or VR should you spec IV) and is always prone to RNG.
To show you how much HtL affects this:
100% uptime: 3rd pt in Incite = 4,556% dmg increase (91,12% of WA gain)
70%: 4,850% (97% of WA)
60%: 4,953% (99,06% of WA)
50%: 5,059% (101,18% of WA)
40%: 5,167% (103,34% of WA)
0%: 7,317% (146,34% of WA)
My conclusion: Unless you skip Hold the Line (DERP!), the difference between Heroic Strike damage gain from Incite vs War Academy is minimal and they are roughly equal at 55% (and a bit) HtL uptime. Assuming you will rarely ever drop below 35% HtL uptime, I prefer the certainty and Cleave benefits of WA over the <5% more damage from Incite. I would only ever advise Incite over War Academy should you have Deep Wounds, at which point you probably maxed WA anyway.
Im a little bit confused now. From what I red I always thought BnT and Hold the Line were bad talents in terms of Talentpoint / Threat, Survivability.
- Rend was buffed today but from what you said 50% won't be enough to be viable or am I wrong?
- Hold the Line is bad because of the double RNG mechanic
Rend only had it's based damage increased, not the scaling.
Why BnT isn't that great:
* single-target, the TC + Rend (with 1 tick not used to refresh), is about the same as Devastate, but only takes longer to apply.
* multi-target, TC is used far more, making the Rend gain rather minimal.
The best use for BnT is tanking 2-4 mobs for an extended period of time.
Hold the Line:
In the old 71-point model, the value of a talent point was considered 1% gain of what you wanted to gain. In the current model, it would seem that Blizz is looking at a 2% gain per point ratio.
That said, with 40% uptime, you gain 4% crit, which is 2% per point. That makes it a valuable threat talent.
With 40% block chance, 4% crit block is worth 4% * 40% * 30% = 0,48% worth in full avoidance. Even with shield block up, this talent is not worth it.
Conclusion: BnT is currently not viable, but maybe be become more valuable in Cata instances. HtL is a threat talent, with a minor bonus in avoidance.
Still don't see the point of comparing incite against war academy. I would be much more interested to see a comparison of War Academy and Cruelty, as that's a real choice we are likely to make. 2 talent points can give us 10% shield slam crit vs 10% heroic strike & cleave damage.
Cruelty > WA without a doubt, as Shield Slam is by far the best damage ability.
WarTotem, you didn't post your full numbers. Are you considering the base 5% per point Crit% increase in Incite in addition to the proc effect?
And yeah, definitely would take Cruelty over War Academy.
Yeah, I am.
I forgot to mention though: The first points are actually a better increase than the last one, due to how the base crit diminishes the proc gain. (2/3 is a 12,14% gain for me)
There are really many ways to deal with this. First, you can pop shield block as you arrive in order to handle the damage better, which would also instantly pop you up to 100 rage due to shield spec.
Originally Posted by bigshootr8
Better than that if the mobs really hit that hard, though, is to Heroic throw a mob, run back for a second or two while the CC mobs are getting CC'd, then charge. The whole thing takes maybe 2 seconds, you have rage, and the CC mobs will be out of your thunderclap range.
Hold the Line is a nice threat target. I don't feel the need for the burst threat that Heavy Repercussions gives.
I'm surprised to see comments about Blood and Thunder being a weak aoe threat increase.
In my tests with a slow one-hander, it does about 50% more dps than Thunder Clap (without a bleed dmg increase debuff). In practice it will do less than that due to its clunky application but it's still strong enough to be mandatory in any situation where sustained aoe dps is needed (which does not include wotlk heroics where everything dies in 5 seconds).
We can safely assume that our aoe threat is balanced around having it.