tanking calculations

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Originally Posted by Fledern

Worst part of this thread is that the Tankpoints addon already has a built-in EHP calculator..... Way to trash an excellent addon.

Not only in the normal Character interface but also on the tooltips for gear if you so configure it.

Additionally Tankpoints will factor in diminishing returns on your avoidance stats so you can see the net effect it'll have with what you're currently wearing.

You can also use the RatingBuster addon by the same author to see how a piece of gear will fare with its gem slots filled in your favorite gemming style.

Both addons contain very detailed readme documents explaining in depth what both addons do, how they calculate stuff, how the math was derived - including shield block mechanism and how you can input your rotation into the addon to see the effect for how YOU play.

Having a tool isnt enough, you have to also know how to use it.

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Block Value does not increase static armor.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Block_value
http://www.wowwiki.com/Armor
http://wow.allakhazam.com/wiki/armor_%28wow%29

AFAIK only agility, as a stat/rating gives armor besides armor. If you can find something contrary, post it, but as of right now there are only 3 ways to gain armor.

1) Armor on items
2) Agility
3) Buffs (Devotion Aura, GotW, etc)

But if you can find something proving that it does feel free to post and correct.

Last time I looked Tankpoints was spot on with its calculations the problem and why everyone stopped using it was because its based around a melee boss like patchwerk because that was it's vintage.

You can't mitigate or avoid what isnt avoidable such as magic/specials etc damage.

The whole "71 sb = 616 armor" question is nowdays defunct because you cant block what isn't blockable and there in lies the problem with the addon in the current game.

As Fledern said I am sure the maths behind it was correct for a melee only boss .. I can't say if it still is I don't know and there have been alot of tweaks to wow.

So the basic problem with the addon is it gives green +rating to gear thats only going to work on a melee only boss.

If you could turn the mitigation calcs off and run it simply on EHP which it shows it would probably still be in use but you can't.

Actually, TankPoints also has numbers for 25/50/75% magic damage.
The problem with TankPoints lies with the fact that it averages avoidance out as damage reduction over an entire fight.
In the current environment, it is not it's 5 minute effect we are concerned about, it's what it can do for us in those 5 seconds we're getting a hit streak that we're looking for. Not to mention that without healing, we'ld never get to those 5min anyway, so it's not an accurate mathification of the tanking environment.

@Loganisis: Block value might not increase static armor, but Armor sure does increase Block value's ... value!

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Originally Posted by WarTotem

Actually, TankPoints also has numbers for 25/50/75% magic damage.
The problem with TankPoints lies with the fact that it averages avoidance out as damage reduction over an entire fight.
In the current environment, it is not it's 5 minute effect we are concerned about, it's what it can do for us in those 5 seconds we're getting a hit streak that we're looking for. Not to mention that without healing, we'ld never get to those 5min anyway, so it's not an accurate mathification of the tanking environment.

@Loganisis: Block value might not increase static armor, but Armor sure does increase Block value's ... value!

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math is pretty black and white. its eaither right or wrong. From this perspective i see what ur saying, max hits before death without heals
is always the benchmark of judging survivability. But on the other hand, we have cooldowns. I havent been in a fight yet in icc where i died due to a streak unless a healer was dead.


UPDATE: I changed out values according to the guide. things seem to be in order, tp is reflecting that the 71 sv enchant adds 540 effective health with block, where as the stam enchant adds 558. However, the plating enchant also adds to the reduction precentage. so the sb enchant appears far more valuable. The def enchant compared to both dosnt appear remotly as bennificial.

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Originally Posted by santoro2984

UPDATE: I changed out values according to the guide. things seem to be in order, tp is reflecting that the 71 sv enchant adds 540 effective health with block, where as the stam enchant adds 558. However, the plating enchant also adds to the reduction precentage. so the sb enchant appears far more valuable. The def enchant compared to both dosnt appear remotly as bennificial.

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The value of the plating enchant IS the reduction percentage. That's where the impact on EH comes in. You can't say it provides EH AND reduction, the reduction IS the EH.

Also, the stamina will ALWAYS be useful whereas plating won't help against magic damage.

Now plating will also help TPS some, as blockvalue = more SS damage.

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Originally Posted by Loganisis

The value of the plating enchant IS the reduction percentage. That's where the impact on EH comes in. You can't say it provides EH AND reduction, the reduction IS the EH.

Also, the stamina will ALWAYS be useful whereas plating won't help against magic damage.

Now plating will also help TPS some, as blockvalue = more SS damage.

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ok, that works for me

Actually, I'm confusing myself (block does that) - It isn't reduciton, it's damage absorbed, so it's equvilaent to reduction is how I think it is.

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Originally Posted by santoro2984

math is pretty black and white. its eaither right or wrong. From this perspective i see what ur saying, max hits before death without heals
is always the benchmark of judging survivability. But on the other hand, we have cooldowns. I havent been in a fight yet in icc where i died due to a streak unless a healer was dead.

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Math is always right, but it's not always USED right. It starts with using the correct representation of a situation into a mathematical problem. Then solving that problem with the correct methods to simplify it to either an earlier solved problem or atleast a simpler represntation of the original problem. (This is what I call mathification, expressing a real-life problem in pure math.) TankPoints uses the average total damage you can take without heals as a benchmark, but that is not the critical situation of how ICC works. (Maybe it will again in Cataclysm, who knows?) If it was, a tank with 90% avoidance and 20k HP would be a 'better' tank by those standards, because he will have a higher TP. Unfortunately, he'ld also die the first time he got hit.
EHP is a better representation because the amount of damage the bosses hit for, you need to survive short bursts of strings of hits.
Burst Time (the link is in the critical tanking guides sticky I believe) is a good representation as well because it not only checks for how long you can survive a hit streak, it also takes into account how often that happens. It is still a bit sketchy because it assumes that everytime the boss misses, you get topped off, but realisticly, that is not THAT far from the truth, which is why it is my preferred mathification... atleast for ICC. The only fight I can think of right now to use a maxed out TP set is General Cthu ... I mean Vezax. Simply because it's the only fight where mana matters. Oh, and block set for Loatheb was always lulz, Shield Block = Immunity FTW :D

On the shield enchant: block value only adds overall reduction (and a bit of threat), it does not provide any EHP while Shield Block is not up.
Only while you have Shield Block up can you guarantee that you will take longer to die due to the plating. It also only helps vs physical, avoidable damage. Not to mention that you need to block atleast 3 times in a streak before that plating helps as much as the stamina, because once you get topped off, the extra ~100 damage you absorbed will just mean 100 more overhealing on top of the thousands pouring in already.

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Originally Posted by WarTotem

Math is always right, but it's not always USED right.

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Don't forget the age-old saying of "Bullshit in, Bullshit out." If you feed math the wrong numbers, your results are meaningless.
Also don't forget that most people can not read a statistical analysis, and they'll draw the wrong conclusions.
Also remember that even a moderatly reliable mathematical equasion to represent tanking is hideously complicated.

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On the shield enchant: block value only adds overall reduction (and a bit of threat), it does not provide any EHP while Shield Block is not up.
Only while you have Shield Block up can you guarantee that you will take longer to die due to the plating. It also only helps vs physical, avoidable damage. Not to mention that you need to block atleast 3 times in a streak before that plating helps as much as the stamina, because once you get topped off, the extra ~100 damage you absorbed will just mean 100 more overhealing on top of the thousands pouring in already.

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Dont's forget that shield block value becomes more valuable as your armor, shield block value, avoidance and shield block rating rise. All of those factors increase the percentage of damage that a successfull block prevents. Oh, and once you have shield block up, it doubles, so it's 200 damage per block there.
I've ran some numbers on it, and concluded that stamina and the plating are about equal when it comes to survival. Of course, those numbers assume a huge shitload of things, and it's easy to come up with numbers that show that it's vastly better or vastly worse. Since they are equal for survival, the extra threat from the plating gives it a slight edge.

Short form of my numbers.
18 stamina is around 280 health. 81 block value is increased to 105 block value.
Paladins:
You'd need roughly three blocks without getting healed to full to come out equal. Blocking three hits in a row without getting healed to full is a very plausible scenario on most bosses. As soon as you block a single blow, the plating will have had a positive effect. The extra health creates a slightly bigger buffer.
Warriors:
Shield block doubles the effect of the plating, critical blocks do as well. Critical blocks under shield block conditions quadruples it. A single critical shield block block is enough for it to have more effect then the health. Any combination of three blocks or two of critical block, shield block block and normal block will have about an equal effect to the health. Considering the short cooldown on shield block and the high chance of having a critical block, these things will happen multiple times during a fight. As soon as you block a single blow, the plating will have had a positive effect. The extra health creates a slighly larger buffer.

After considering those factors, I slightly increased the value I afford shield blocking since preventing damage is better then taking it, and decided that they are more or less equal. (More or less depends on the fight itself - sometimes stam is better, sometimes the plating.)

Notable exception is Keleseth - you can't block what he does. Every other boss melees, and in that regard shield block value helps against magic damage, since damage not taken from melee is damage you can take from magic before you die.

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Originally Posted by WarTotem

Math is always right, but it's not always USED right.

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"Math may be the language of the devil, but statisticians prove reality is what you make it." - Stephen Colbert

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Originally Posted by Aggathon

"Math may be the language of the devil, but statisticians prove reality is what you make it." - Stephen Colbert

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im not even touching this

thanks for ur post martie.