i think i need someone to paraphrase to conversation... Im lost on what going on
i think i need someone to paraphrase to conversation... Im lost on what going on
I think there are some serious semantical problems going on between the OP and everyone else here.
Hit chance = chance for YOUR CHAR to hit your opponent
Miss chance = chance for your char to miss hitting your opponent
CHANCE TO BE MISSED = your chance to be missed which is 5% default + what you gain from defense (which has diminishing returns mind you)
CHANCE TO BE HIT = your chance to be regularly hit by a mom, this is normally taken by subtracting your combined avoidance+block from the boss' attack table.
If you're going to post on tankspot, you need to use the terminology here, or at least explain your own terminology. You can't expect us to simply "know" what you're referring to, when the terms are confusing from site to site. we have our own syntax for words here, and it's often accepted as the standard since we ARE the frontline of tanking information. Please, stop, calm down, and rethink your original question, and post it, as best as you can, explaining everything that may be misconstrued. Otherwise, this thread will be closed shortly, because frankly, I'm tired of seeing back and forth arguments of EHP vs Avoidance or EHP vs Threat stats where neither side is going to budge, and no real math is being presented by 1 or both sides.
the "hit " i was refering to was ( as kaz pinted out ) CHANCE TO BE HIT. very sorry for the confusion.. all above references to my math was refering to this ( I think?) still very lost on the terms used.. i will learn the language asap.
hey, im going to screen shot my addon and go from there.. perhaps i just misinturpt some of the calculation and thus, the stat im referencing is completly off
The simple fact is gearing for EH > gearing for Avoidance as long as you're doing it correctly, which means you're not chasing stamina only. I gear bonus armor, armor rings/neck/1 trinket (2 depending on the fight) whenever possible because that helps the healers be more effective every fight. It also happens to maximize EH too.
Well, except for high magic fights because then I'm going for as much sta/res as I can because armor, dodge, parry, block become less valuable for those specific fights (there is still physical damage to worry about, just not as much)
EH gearing also makes it so there is less unknown during the fight. Avoidance will result in less damage taken, but it may not result in any damage avoided when you need it, such as dual healers getting little oozes chasing them or being locked together by BQL debuff and having to run and meet each other. These types of healer interrupts are the ones that typically cause tank deaths anymore if they also occuring during a bad streak, and the small amount of avoidance you're talking about adding wouldn't appriciably change the rate of those bad streaks occuring.
Again you show you don't understand WoW mechanics. Fledern said that tank threat not ramping with DPS increases at 30% were a pre-determined issue and this has come true. This doesn't touch on EH vs Avoidance at all, which is your entire premise.
Best distribution of talent point specs (cookie cutter) aren't outdated. You're really, really reaching to prove this and have been pretty much shown to be wrong with every wild exagerated claim.
If this is because you're contrarian and don't like to go with the crowd, I think we can all understand that, it's a pretty common view among most players, as they would prefer to build around their desired play style. However WoW is a game of math and the threads Melvar linked and others have pointed to pretty much prove that to maximize your impact on the raid, which should be every player's goal, there is pretty much a single perfect possible set of gear, rotations, gems, enchants, etc. And this is the goal. Making wild, evidence-less assertions about the game to go against this won't change that fact.
The 30% buff didn't change optimal tank building. It simply made sub-optimal tanking, DPS-ing, and healing specs/builds/gearing less punishing to the raid.
indeed, jimmy has a better car..
i agree with ur ehp vs avoid comparsion.. I didnt mean to imply that based on current conditions, avoid wins over ehp. what i was getting at was, given the buff there is oppertunity to replace a small amount of ehp stats ( stam) with other stats that may well provide more optimal conditions in what was called " sub optimal tanking" atmosphere. for me, that would be somthing to aid threat gen. this includes jemmming, but is NOT limited to it.. glyphs and gear swaps are also other means of hedging that posters on this forum have taken advantage of. I dont think its exactly a bad concept to attempt to craft more personalized stat stragities given the option is available. currently, it is available. this is more or less the direction the post has gone.
i will edit my post.. "build" was again a poor choice of words.. i did not want to suggest tallents were in any way involved in this post.
this immage is also available in my album on my profile for optimal viewing. DO I have some serious misconception of exactly that my addon is refering to? note the circled area's under combat table
Sad Panda am I for just accidentally clicking a link that wiped out my entire post. Let's try this again.
People may not be familiar with Whitetooth's posts at Tankspot because I'm not sure he ever became a member of Tankspot. Whitetooth is the guy who brought us Tankpoints and RatingsBuster, and he hangs out at Elitist Jerks (or at least that's the only place I've seen him operating).
I think I'm starting to understand what you mean in regards to the hit confusion. With avoidance + block without Icecrown Radiance I hover around 78 combined, just going from memory. This would give me around a 25% chance to be hit by the boss, which I imagine is how you might be getting the numbers. Indeed if my SBV were much higher innately (probably double or more what they are presently) I might be tempted to put some defense gems into my gear to get the block benefit. As soon as you put Icecrown Radiance into the picture though my block becomes a lot less attractive. ICR makes it too much icing on too little cake.
7437-9998 Hit (full damage)
and then you'd /roll 0-9999 (or in this case 9998 because there seems to be some rounding that it's not showing).
I believe this is the root of all your troubles.
Basically what happens when you get more avoidance or block is that you just push hit off the combat table slowly. Likewise if you were to get 95% avoidance on the table, but had no crit reduction hit would be completely removed from the table and every time avoidance failed you would result in a crit. So the table would look something like:
0-9499 Dodge (to keep it short)
There was a thread about that a while ago. That if you start to approach what was it, 85% parry/avoid/block then increasing those numbers is better than EH gearing because you make the chance of a bad streak almost irrelevent? IIRC the point?
But as you said, with the ICC debuff, you're no where near the point where bad streaks are nearly removable.
Are they still planning to impliment Raid Boss Expertise in Cata that would all but make it a no-go there too?
The trade offs for improving threat, or at least the best ones, have very little direct impact on EH. Devestate + Blocking glyps, maybe even cleave for trash packs cost you CD usage but don't directly impact EH. Of course glyphs are around for you to help augment your production as you need.
Heck, if you don't have a LK tank wep drop, the H ICC 25 gunboat 1H 1.5 wep speed axe is a huge threat increase plus an EH increase as well (though you lose a chunk of avoidance).
Then there is also DPS having to pay more attention. Hunters MD, rogues ToT the tanks, Pallys with the threat reducer, 'Lock soulshatter.
All of those occur prior to adjusting gemming/enchants. So even in this spot, swapping gems would be lower on the priority list. Part of this is because, as the math has been proven (where is Draedor and his Siggy that had this all linked?) hit and Exp are the least valuable components of threat. Rotation, wep, glyphs, raid help (and one other I think, I can't recall) are all more effective ways of increasing threat.
As for trading 15 stamina for avoidance, the returns on the avoidance you are getting are so small, you have to trade a lot of stamina, enough to make a very noticable impact, for any decent returns on avoidnace in ICC and even then, you're reaching the realm of 'on average' you'd get an extra dodge/parry/miss or 2 per boss fight at the cost of 1000s of HP.
For example, a warrior needs 80 dodge rating for a 1% dodge increase. Gemming, that's 120 sta *1.1 (kings) * 1.09 (warrior sta talent) = ~144 sta * 10 = 1440 sta * 1.3 (ICC buff) = 1872 HP for 1% more dodge.
(120 stamina comes from the fact that 80 dodge is = 4 +20 dodge gems or 8 +10/+15 sta gems instead of +30 sta gems, for a total trade off of 120 stamina)
Take a 1.5 sec swing timer, a 10 minute enrage, and the boss is going to swing at the tank a maximum of 400 times in a full 10 minute fight. Less if tank swaps go on or emotes, or the boss dies earlier. So on *average* you're looking 1 extra missed attack ever 2.5 minutes (again, average, even less becasue dodge is subjected to diminishing returns) for 1872 * DR (my case, about 71%) so that's 6455 EH.
Giving up at least 6455 EH for an avoid that occurs roughly every 2.5 minutes due to the increased dodge (because it's RNG so in any given fight it could happen a whole lot more or even not at all) or if does happen may happen when I really don't need it (at full health or at 70% a moment before a pally heal comes in) isn't something I'd feel comfortable giving up.
And as your armor increases, the opportunity cost of each stamina point traded becomes higher because you start reaching the increasing returns at an increasing rate of the exponetial curve of armor's DR (since this is only a physical damage discussion as there's very little effect to magic attacks, the slight increase in chance to miss is pretty minor).
This is why Avoid in ICC is still sub-optimal. To obtain a big enough chunk of it that you can start to expect to usually occur during a fight you have to give up big chunks of EH. The returns just aren't there.
*caveat, I'm 95% sure my math is accurate, feel free to correct if you see a mistake*
Warning: Wall o' Text. Man I haven't done this in ages. Do not operate heavy machinery after reading this post.
I'm gonna reach back to the previous portions of the thread where things were progressing (before it fell apart again).
-With 30% buff, we have the "luxury" of not gemming EHP, *IF* you are not progressing in content. That is to say, your gear is improving but the content challenge is static. This is moving towards overgearing your content, as mentioned earlier. And as has been stated before, your survivability is not being jeopardized at this point even if you geared for intellect/spi/whatever (Actually, as a paladin I would *LOVE* to have more intellect... but I digress anyways..).
-If we hold on to the idea from above, and really Petninja has the only one to support this, what else can we gear for. Yeah, we could go with spirit, but it has no use. The conventional wisdom is to start focusing on threat, but the OP would like to increase avoidance. Presumably, the intent is to attempt be godly by not taking any hits. I can appreciate this, I have a twink warrior at level 70 which is exactly that, stupidly geared at level 70 with full T6 and epic WOTLK gems+Enchants for amusement purposes. The other reason, which I also employ on my warrior, is to deal with PuGs with substandard healers. And I admonish tankspotters for not keeping an open mind that we have people who want to improve but they only have access to bad healers, they can't change this, so they want to mitigate this by avoidance. Sure they can improve threat or EH , but improving threat or EH doesn't help with bad healers who can't keep you up. The people here are just too used to awesome guild healers who do their job very well and they can afford to swap in DPS gear because they do their job.
Now then, everybody else, take a deep breath. Yes the OP is confrontational, does not read what is put under his nose, and has poor communication skills when it comes to posting on TS. Let's be positive and go with what he is saying in the most positive light.
Let's for the moment, assume that with full 251 or 264 gear and requisite tanking skills, you have enough EH to survive anything thrown your way in Normal mode (*gasp*). I think we've all told people in one way or the other that you should have enough threat with 251 or better gear and proper misdirects, and we assume the raid comp on the 10 man includes a competent MD/TotT. What I will say is that you should have enough EH if you have the proper skills and experience from the encounter (don't stand in fire, etc.). Now here's the handicap. Your healer sucks. They're undergeared, and they do things wrong, like not landing heals at the correct time, or are going OOM because of some other deficiency. Yeah, you can direct them to Aliena's work, but let's say they are your kid nephew, you can't boot them and find a better healer. You've fixed their spec and glyphs, all that is left is skill and gear. Let's face it, not everybody can operate at world/server first skill level, people will max out at some point and that's as good as they will get, and getting to that point will take a lot of time and training. Getting better gear will help. In the meanwhile, while your raid is carrying said healer to gear them (Because really, increasing avoidance can ONLY be used for epeen shining purposes or carrying people), you'd like to do your part to compensate for their short comings.
Gearing for threat may be a better option, provided your DPS can match they TPS increases. This has the benefit of shortening the fight time, which means less load on the healer, AND you clear content faster, helping your gearing issue (more time to do other raids, heroics for frost badges, farm gold for stuff of AH, etc.). I say this has more bang for buck than increasing avoidance, unless again, your DPS can't make use of your TPS gains.
If the gearing for extra TPS doesn't help, and you have enough avoidance, AND your healers are sub-optimal, we are finally are where to OP can only be, and still have some shred of credibility here. And yes, I realize this is a highly circumstantial and ridiculous situation to be arguing at TankSpot, but it's plausible, and let's roll with it. The only rational for enduring this insanity, is that you HOPE the healer will improve as they get more experience under their belt, AND their gear will improve to the point where they catch up with the rest of the raid. At that point, this cherished healer you patiently carried and coddled should be able join you as you start doing hardmodes.
In the past, tanks would just build a block set when they got to this point. Mindlessly grind a raid on farm status until the healer got better gear and skills, but I think anub25 pretty much was the last time an unhittable set was contemplated. Unless you downgear back to that point, you aren't going to get a decent unhittable block set with high SBV in ICC gear (the gear doesn't lend itself to that). If you downgear, the eventual endpoint to that argument is the "Undergeared" guild doing ICC in blues.
So, working with ICC 10/25 gear, DUE TO THE NATURE OF THE GEAR, if you really want to carry a healer, you are better off going with armor upgrades. The OP didn't really read through the posts (especially Agg's post) which explain why we are essentially armor whores. To the OP, the following is a list of WHY, in the event we wish to carry a healer, we would gear for armor.
1) ICC level gear is chocked full of armor, not a whole lot of avoidance. What avoidance is there, is further nerfed by the 20% dodge debuff. Assuming you stacked our ass off in avoidance, you won't reduce your damage nearly enough to make a difference, but stacking armor can get you to a point where it is significant.
2) The Debuff, coupled with diminishing returns on avoidance, make it impossible for it to be significant. The math behind this is in Agg's post of why we gear for EH. Read the #@$! post please. Yes it's long, but we have all read it, this is why we can speak with certainty. Hell, I'm pretty sure Agg would love to throttle me personally for arguing mercilessly with him on some points, but he's still essentially correct.
3) If you REALLY want to help healer, the real lesson to tanks in the WHOLE of WotLK is proper use of tank cooldowns. No amount of gear can compare to the gains from full use of cooldowns. If you can tell me, you used every god damned mitigation CD to its fullest extent that your class offered consistently throughout a raod(and boy you better be on your freaking game if you are a warrior, you got a bazillion of them), this will exceed any possible gains through gemming/enchanting, by a huge mile. Post some logs of your tanking, and guaranteed we can find gaps in defensive cooldown usage where you could have optimized it.
The other approach is to basically roll a class with more passive mechanisms, namely paladins, bears and Blood DKs. I will submit a Warrior with 100% optimal CD usage will outperform a passive tank by a longshot, but the fact of the matter is, even Xav is not 100% robotically precise, he's probably 95% efficient (and he's probably DPSing his ass off the other 4.9% of the time, backed by solid healers). He's a skilled tank, not merely average.
Finally, I can say that yeah, I have heard of Whitetooth. To the other tankspotters, he did a lot of pioneering work over in EJ to figure out the combat table, in the TBC end days/ Early WotLK. AFAIK, he's dropped off the scene a long time ago, things have changed alot, and TANKSPOTTTERs, have carried on the good work he did and updated it, mainly from the tanking standpoint. WowWiki talks about Whitetooth's work.
To the OP, quoting whitetooth is leading people astray. People here don't remember whitetooth because much of his work has basically become common knowledge and required forehand knowledge to post here, even if some don't know where it came from. It's like quoting Darwin's work when arguing the effects of Global Warming on the eco system, or Newton's work in physics when discussing Steven Hawking's ideas.
It's probably kicking around somewhere in that thread, but I'm not sure what a "Miss Support Threshold" is, which is probably the root of the problem in this discussion.
I'm not going to browse the entire thread for it, but I did find that Whitetooth is also the guy who apparently found the Miss cap (at 16%), but all that means is that infinite defense will still not let you get above 16% miss on the combat table. I imagine that doesn't help much.
The Hit % in that screen shot says you will get hit ~ 26% of the time from what I can tell.
Even then, the sample size would have to be large enough to actually reflect that. Sometimes you will be getting hit 15% of the time... sometimes 50% of the time.
Also: Is that addon maintained? ie. maintained with current DR's etc.? I ask because crushing blows are no longer part of the game, and haven't been since WotLK.
Take a 1.5 sec swing timer, a 10 minute enrage, and the boss is going to swing at the tank a maximum of 400 times in a full 10 minute fight. i may have not considered it from this viewpoint. puts a different perspective on things..
one thing i notice, I belive the fixed factor is more lik 65 vs 80. I personally was never jeming that much dodge in my basic raid configuration. actulally, I was jemming defence, which was increase my stats by the following factors:
taking advantage of socket bonuses, and making the correction to the fixed factor, (65 vs80) my total stam loss was 70 stam. the tradeoff was the above result. (keep in mind im a jc)
furthermore, I also changed out some 30 stam for stam + strength for the block value and threat reasons.. recently, i picked up glacial shield wall, so i droped the str for stright stam. but lok at the above mathmatics. in my oppinion, the tradeoff was worth it. considering i was still buffing out to 75+ hp had i droped below 70k, i NEVER would have done this
lastly, im actually moving away from survival at the moment, being as i have not had 1 problem with healers keeping me alive in a long time I want to focus on threat, and was considering agility stam. the returns on agility are overwhelming point for point.
on thing you lost me on : armors DR... dosnt returns start to deminish around 30k armor??
As a side note, before cata is where it is today, SBR, also gained through defense, did not suffer DR even when dodge and parry did suffer DR (a fact we used for Anub 25). The devs planned to have it suffer DR in cataclysm (before the block mechanics were completely overhauled). I mention this in case people google some obscure references to this.
Something be fishy here.
Armor is on DR right from the very first point of armor (remember the grey cloth pants you picked up in goldshire/barrens? Yeah, right there). It's capped at 75% damage reduction, which is in the neighbourhood of 49,905 armor @ level 80 against level 83 mobs. Good luck hitting that passively, my friend.Quote:
on thing you lost me on : armors DR... dosnt returns start to deminish around 30k armor??