defence support thresholds

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Originally Posted by santoro2984

I never said hard cap was possible, i honestly had no idea it was. if i did i would have used that in the argurment of avoid vs ehp months ago. (LOL) I did make a reference for example to 9% miss. (or hit, which ever term u prefer) and could not understand why this isnt activly used as a benchmark given the current gear most tanks have axcess to

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Mel misspoke. Avoidance cap is impossible due to hard coded game mechanics. He knows this. He was referring to unhittable, or removing hit from the combat table. This can only be done by Paladins and Warriors due to the block mechanic. It doesn't work on real bosses, but on adds or trash it can be effective. However, the gear required for it is very strange and requires a mix of blues and specific items from naxx up to ToC. Tanks used it for Anub in ToC to marginalize the add damage. It really doesn't have a place anywhere else... maybe dueling stupid rogues.

I still don't understand where this 9% miss (hit) is coming from. All characters have a base 5% miss on their combat table, and 540 defense brings you up to 10.6% miss on your combat table.

Also, to be fair, having over 100% avoidance has existed in the past. It's the reason sunwell radiance existed in sunwell. I've seen tanks (and rogues) in gear in TBC that allowed for them to avoid every single attack on the melee table. This is also the reason they put diminishing returns on avoidance so it can't happen again.

Also, I've not heard of Warriors struggling to put out comparable threat to Paladins at the least. TBH I don't know a lot of DK tanks. Most of the DKs I know hate how DK tanking feels.

Further reading may include http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_table

santoro... me thinks these things you think do not mean what you think of them.

Agg's reasons why we do what we do pretty much answers every question you have then some.

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Originally Posted by Petninja

Also, I've not heard of Warriors struggling to put out comparable threat to Paladins at the least. TBH I don't know a lot of DK tanks. Most of the DKs I know hate how DK tanking feels.

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in ICC i can quite easily cruise at 8ktps and can wind up to 13k tps for established burst without Vigi (i may have slightly forgot after respeccing from prot to prot) TotT or MDs. now i know that that only allows my DPs to pull 13k dps but few of them are capable of sustaining those types of numbers. i rock with ~190 hit rating and maybe 17exp, and don't use a DW build. Now while i do feel DK threat is quite nice single target Vigilance is really what gives us the edge on single target TPS - aslong as the DPS are pulling big numbers the prot warrior should be keeping up with any other tank.

i tank with all three Plate classes and the only main difference is how the threat comes, Warriors is bursty as hell, Paladins are nice and consistant, and DKs are kinda in the middle, and IT spam streak is prolly even more bursty than an SnB proc streak while SB is up....or maybe not.

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Originally Posted by Loganisis

santoro... me thinks these things you think do not mean what you think of them.

Agg's reasons why we do what we do pretty much answers every question you have then some.

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no

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Originally Posted by santoro2984

combat table : reduced hit chance by 9% (after soft cap). so roughly hit hance of 24% before the icc debuff

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Wait, what?

I'm beginning to think you are playing a different game that also has ICC, but with vastly different mechanics.
Could you, like... what did you say again... prove it with math?

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as for the hard cap as it is most often refered to

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No, it isn't. Maybe on the WoW forums, but not here. Here it is called unhittable.

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Mel misspoke. Avoidance cap is impossible due to hard coded game mechanics.

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Not really. I could clarify, but I said nothing about avoidance cap... just the unhittable number of 102.4%. Rogues can actually hit this now too (outside of ICC) as I recall. There was a thread a while back where someone theorycrafted it.

The only person mentioning a "hard cap" on avoidance is the OP.

Now... for articles to help the OP: (please read through them)

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...e-Combat-Table

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...idance-ratings

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...ght=unhittable (section IX)

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...king-mechanics

now that the thread has started having bits of real discussion...

Threat IS a problem as of now and it's been foretold right here in this forum that it would happen. When tanks were way ahead in threat and blizzard was nerfing the dps portion of tank threat, it was predicted that when the 30% icc buff hit the compounding effects would start overwhelming the static threat modifiers of tanking abilities. We've come to that point.

If we are to take the OPs original post to mean that once "too much EH" comes into play, gemming for something else becomes viable, i would also disagree like the rest of the posters. Too much EH is a sign that you're overgearing the encounter and that it's time to move onto something harder. That something harder are heroic modes. If threat is an issue, it means your dps overgears the encounter. In that case, you should, again, be tanking heroic modes.

Once we establish that the proper "placement" of a tank with high EH is an encounter that again jeopardizes his survival, staying with, keeping & improving survival gear, in terms of EH, again becomes the norm.

If we are to help our raid through something other than EH, it would almost always boil down to higher threat. Higher threat = higher possible dps output and if you have dps who actually makes use of the higher ceiling, then a faster kill, which means less healing for the healers too.

As for the OPs personal experience with threat, i've been in similar situations. My own guild has stopped raiding 25man content and people broke off for SC2 or just quit till Cataclysm. So instead, i'm regularly running 25HC with the alt raid of our server's #1 guild. Worst dps clocks in at 10K, average being around 13K dps (i'm talking saurfanglike encounters here), going up as high as 15-16K dps. The switch from a casual environment to suddenly where everybody was challenging my threat has been.....both a pleasure and a rude awakening.

I'm co-tanking with a bear, a dk and a paladin depending on the day on those runs. Warrior AoE threat is woefully inadequate relative to those classes. ALL of our threat is inadequate to a starfalling boomkin. No amount of misdirect solves that. On single target however, i can see warriors still being king of the hill.

On a more useful note, solving the threat problem is again done through other means than reevaluating our gemming & enchanting. Gems & enchants are more or less permanent, things you dont change from fight to fight. Therefore i've opted to switch out my vigilance & glyphs to achieve threat boosts.

Without misdirects, i can pull around 10K TPS by myself + raidbuffs. That gives a 13K dps melee dps ceiling and we have people easily topping that.
My #1 go-to is vigilance. I make sure i monitor threat throughout the fight & put it on the person who'll give me the best benefit. This usually involves frequently changing vigilance between a cat dps, a fury warrior or a boomkin.
My #2 go-to was changing out the glyphs. With enrage timers & tank switches & high dps, i've been needing 2 min shield wall & last stand less and less (i till need the EH, Putricide 25HC with 4 stacks can hit pretty hard and we sometimes saw a 5th now & then - but i still need my cooldowns only once per fight so a long cooldown is still not a problem) so i switched out those glyphs for high threat ones. Now i can pull out 13K sustained TPS, with misdirects going as high as 21K TPS at the start of a fight - problem solved.

TLDR: If you outgear the place, tank something harder, if you're having threat problems, change things other than gear. EH gear is always useful & should stay the same.

PS: I really REALLY would suggest you read through the guides on this site. I would especially recommend all of Satrina's Guides and then Aggathon's more recent work.

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Originally Posted by MellvarTank

Not really. I could clarify, but I said nothing about avoidance cap... just the unhittable number of 102.4%. Rogues can actually hit this now too (outside of ICC) as I recall. There was a thread a while back where someone theorycrafted it.

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Well you were talking about a gear set that actually existed that got you 102.4% avoidance, and that it existed in a thread somewhere on this site. I dare you to find me that set. I don't believe it exists in the current DRs world we play in.

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Originally Posted by santoro2984

no

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So gearing for things that don't exist, throwing out wildly irrational hyper-inflated numbers to prove your hopes, and even stating that what you hope is true may not even exist points to a firm grasp of the mechanics in WoW?

You want a greater emphasis on something other than armor and stamina. Okay, I think everyone gets that. But that's the way WotLK is, so unless you've got 25H LK on farm, it's still the best gearing option even if it's rediculously over-geared for loot ship. Maybe that will change in Cata, but wanting the world to be different doesn't make it so.

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Well you were talking about a gear set that actually existed that got you 102.4% avoidance, and that it existed in a thread somewhere on this site.

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That's what I meant about clarification.... this would fix it: Avoidance/block.

There was someone who theorycrafted an avoidance set on a rogue though.... but only outside of ICC. I can't seem to find it though. :(

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Originally Posted by MellvarTank

No, it isn't. Maybe on the WoW forums, but not here. Here it is called unhittable.



Not really. I could clarify, but I said nothing about avoidance cap... just the unhittable number of 102.4%. Rogues can actually hit this now too (outside of ICC) as I recall. There was a thread a while back where someone theorycrafted it.

The only person mentioning a "hard cap" on avoidance is the OP.

Now... for articles to help the OP: (please read through them)

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...e-Combat-Table

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...idance-ratings

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...ght=unhittable (section IX)

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...king-mechanics

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thank you, but I have to say now that after reading thru several sites over the last few days, EVERY site have different terms and visions of the same discussions.. Most of the information revolving around the theory of builds l have read long b4 this thread

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theres nothing in these posts i havent already read or hadnt already known long b4 this thread

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Then why did you ask me to link the unhittable armor set in the links I posted?

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Originally Posted by Loganisis

So gearing for things that don't exist, throwing out wildly irrational hyper-inflated numbers to prove your hopes, and even stating that what you hope is true may not even exist points to a firm grasp of the mechanics in WoW?

You want a greater emphasis on something other than armor and stamina. Okay, I think everyone gets that. But that's the way WotLK is, so unless you've got 25H LK on farm, it's still the best gearing option even if it's rediculously over-geared for loot ship. Maybe that will change in Cata, but wanting the world to be different doesn't make it so.

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Ok, I dont know what everyone elses HIt chance is, but im around 25% is every other tank in line with that? because if not, then i dont think we are talking about the same stat. I keep seeing people refer to avoidence ... Im combat table shows, dodged, parried, blocked, MISSED. So if you follow one site, and dont like what im bringing to the table, perhaps go to war with other crafters that disagree with some of the prementioned information on this site.. frankly, I cant belive people think im making this stuff up.. What machanic of wow do you think you have a firm grasp on?

Fledern Just said in a post above that conpounding effects were overwhelming static threat modifiers. That by it self makes clear the point that the cookie cutter build is out dated. Now, he has made several suggestions as to how one should go about adjusting. I personally DO NOT mind chenging jems out fight per fight. I dont like to, But i dont mind. would i give up glyphing my cds for threat right now? probily not. But everyone has they're own way of doing things.

Point is, If your wiping on heroic LK with a 30% buff, Odds are all the EHP in the world is not going to help you. However, Putting yourself in a situation to require less raid support just might.

worlds first tanks were indeed geared for EH.. your missing the rest of that story >>> partly in TOC gear, with no icc buff, and no forums with a step by step encounter drawn out... You cannot compare yourself to them.. or anyother tank ... thats why they are wrld first

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Originally Posted by Petninja

Further reading may include http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_table

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EDITED: I miss quoted here.. thanks Petninja

IS anyone in here fimilar with whitetooth? he used to have tankspot forums... I cant seem to find his ehp vs avoid discussion.. it was on this site at one point

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Originally Posted by Petninja

Mel misspoke. Avoidance cap is impossible due to hard coded game mechanics. He knows this. He was referring to unhittable, or removing hit from the combat table. This can only be done by Paladins and Warriors due to the block mechanic. It doesn't work on real bosses, but on adds or trash it can be effective. However, the gear required for it is very strange and requires a mix of blues and specific items from naxx up to ToC. Tanks used it for Anub in ToC to marginalize the add damage. It really doesn't have a place anywhere else... maybe dueling stupid rogues.

I still don't understand where this 9% miss (hit) is coming from. All characters have a base 5% miss on their combat table, and 540 defense brings you up to 10.6% miss on your combat table.

Also, to be fair, having over 100% avoidance has existed in the past. It's the reason sunwell radiance existed in sunwell. I've seen tanks (and rogues) in gear in TBC that allowed for them to avoid every single attack on the melee table. This is also the reason they put diminishing returns on avoidance so it can't happen again.

Also, I've not heard of Warriors struggling to put out comparable threat to Paladins at the least. TBH I don't know a lot of DK tanks. Most of the DKs I know hate how DK tanking feels.

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WHy is it here, you are seperating hittable and avoidence, but in other portions of this thread, others seem to be unable to make that seperation? im just courious?


also, i have said this once already, my hit chance is about 24% ... is ur toon in line with this? as i said perviously,

combat table : reduced hit chance by 9% (after soft cap). so roughly hit hance of 24% before the icc debuff, or 9% after 540.

I cant find the OP, but this was compared to hiting the hard expertise cap (58?) from a dps point of view. So this is the "thery" behind the math. It all holds up its just not as stright forward as "EHP is king" which i think in itself leaves a bad taste in some people's mouth

EDITED OUT because I mis-read the post I was replying to. Apologies.

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well me thinks your an idiot..

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You just slammed the one guy who was basically defending you.

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IS anyone in here fimilar with whitetooth? he used to have tankspot forums... I cant seem to find his ehp vs avoid discussion.. it was on this site at one point

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No, I've never seen the name. Also, you probably can't find it because it was either A) outdated or B) incorrect.

You haven't read any of the links posted, have no clue what you are talking about, and are now basically trolling. We've tried to help you, but you just don't get it.

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worlds first tanks were indeed geared for EH.. your missing the rest of that story >>> partly in TOC gear, with no icc buff, and no forums with a step by step encounter drawn out... You cannot compare yourself to them.. or anyother tank ... thats why they are wrld first

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In case you don't remember, ICC was gated progression. These guilds farmed the gear before they could progress further into ICC. They weren't as 'hard up' as you make them out to be.

Also: They were in full 258 Heroic gear.

As well: The gear in ToC is REALLY well itemized, Satrina's/Jugg's is STILL one of the best trinkets in the game.

How about you actually try clicking on the links I posted and read them before you say you have. It's pretty blatantly obvious you have not.

While you are at it, have a read over these:

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...BEFORE-POSTING

In particular:

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This site is dedicated to helping people tank better. There are a lot of people here who do a lot of hard work to figure out how things work in game. There's nothing wrong with arguing against the common wisdom - that's how a lot of what is currently common wisdom came to be! However, if you are making an argument without any sort of evidence, math, or theory as to why something is wrong, you're just trolling.

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Originally Posted by santoro2984

also, i have said this once already, my hit chance is about 24% ... is ur toon in line with this? as i said perviously,

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Wait, what chance are you talking about? Your chance to be hit by melee attacks, or your chance to hit with melee attacks?

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Originally Posted by Martie

Wait, what chance are you talking about? Your chance to be hit by melee attacks, or your chance to hit with melee attacks?

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The chance to be hit by melee attacks can NEVER be 24%

5% base + 2% Night Elf racial + 16% from having INFINITE amount of Defense rating = 23%
It is technicly possible to have 24% melee hit as a Warrior, but I wonder how your gear must look then.

MY guess is that he means the chance on the attack table for hits.
That means (without Icewell Radiance) he's just past ICC 10 gearwise. Although if he gems lots of Defense it might actually be less, block chance and all that.