Printable View
I've been looking around the past couple of days for a reliable numbers on just how much threat does each of our attacks provide. There is a great article on this site but it was made back in 3.0 I believe and things have changed since. I thought about trying out the TPS parser that's stickied here but our guild uses World of Logs.
Anyone know a good way to have a more careful examination of the threat that I am doing?
While each move generates its own static level of threat, the damage combined to it adds to how much threat in generates, so its best to use the Tanking Spreadsheet since your values are unique based on your Attack Power and such.
Thanks Kahmal. I didn't actually realize there were such things and thought spreadsheets were the tools of DPS. But went out and tried a couple and the one that seemed to produce results was from EJ. I'll link it below but although it did give me good results, such as showing what my TPS should be, I'm still lacking a little in terms of what I was actually hoping to accomplish; which was to refine my rotation by knowing exactly how much my abilities deliver threat. Ultimately, the point is to find a way to push out more threat because I am having issues with hunters and mages hitting 9-10k DPS.
http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t84604-t...adsheet_3_3_a/
According to this, after setting all my talents and choosing my gear, the result shows ~7509 TPS. I think I am hitting this number pretty solidly and even over it. Got any experience with this specific sheet to know if this is accurate? The EJ thread does mention several bugs with deep wounds modeling and ICC boss profiles and warns the TPS value might be underestimated.
An armory link and your raid format would also be good i think. If we're talking 25man 7.5K TPS seems a little on the low side. As far as i know, that link to 3.0 values is either correct or near enough to not matter much. Still, i dont think a raw TPS number is ever going to solve problems as aggro is a fickle beast and needs to managed constantly depending on the situation.
If you really much go by numbers, lets take the dps you singled out. 10K ranged dps will overaggro at 30% above tank target. If they have zero threat reduction talents, that means a 7K TPS is the limit at which point they'll overaggro. You're above this but definitely in the danger zone.
Next comes the issues with the dps themselves. Warriors need a rampup time to start doing their best TPS. Quite a few dps like to pop all cooldowns and wail into mobs the second they see your first swing animation (regardless of whether it lands or not). That'll pull aggro no matter what you do, unless you have some misdirects on you. So, are those aggroing hunters using misdirects? Are they properly faining death when their aggro goes high (before they pull aggro)? If not then part of the problem is with the dps themselves.
Are you counting vigilance in your threat calculations? Vigilance is a lifesaver. Put it on the highest aggro dps (preferably one with no aggro dump like a fury warrior). It will significantly boost your threat while reducing his, thereby increasing the aggro lead you have.
One thing i see a lot is warrior tanks focusing primarily on applying the 5 sunders first. In this time & age of "i dont care if tank threat doesnt scale", i find it more convenient to delay the 5 sunders & go for higher burst threat. A charge pull followed by a shield-blocked shieldslam, shockwave & thunderclap usually gives me a good aggro lead. By that time usually revenge also pops up, so i follow with that. This sequence usually gives me enough of a lead that combined with vigilance & misdirects i dont have aggro problems.
Aye, reason I didn't link armor and stuff was 'cause hoped to avoid making another "fix my threat thread" but what the heck. I'll like my armory link below and see if I can answer all your questions. This is actually an alt but it will become my main in Cata, which is why I am putting so much effort into figuring the class out. We raid primarily 25s but as alt runs go, I've found myself in both recently. In 10s don't think I had any issues, it was more our recent 25 run in which we had some high dps main chars on who really made me work for it. The 7-8k TPS that I mentioned is from the spreadsheet, I think, something like my raw TPS, without MDs and tricks. Something I often see myself doing on tank & spank bosses in heroics, which lead me to believe that it is my own personal TPS. Ofc it always fluctuates up and down a little bit, particularly depending how strong the Vigilance target is, since naturally the more TPS he has, the more I will have.
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...ptulon&cn=Hogi
On our ICC25 run, it was really a race with the hunters and mages at around 10K TPS but I would assume that includes MDs because on Lord Marrowgar P1 I was hitting between 8-9k TPS. It is annoying that I'm never really sure if I have tricks/MDs, cause my buff bars just fill up with such an amount of buffs that it looks almost insane. I did ofc have Vigilance on either a mage or a hunter, which ever was closest to me but it did seem like they had to hold back not to go over me. I use Grid and Clique to just let me click to change the vigilance target. The exception to this is Festergut where the hunters and mages were in their groups, out of range of my vigilance so I could not change the target after the pull.
On that note, I don't think the spreadsheet I have includes Vigilance. At least I can't find it anywhere on it and no mention is made of it. Probably makes sense cause it is rather difficult to simulate since you don't know the DPS of the target. Btw, a small correction to what I said before, when I wrote "I am having issues with hunters and mages hitting 9-10k DPS." That is actually inaccurate. It was during the Rotface and Festergut fights in ICC25, but I meant to write TPS, not DPS. Don't know why I did that.
It is funny you mentioned the 5 sunders, cause I think this is one of the issues I have. I don't specifically go out to first hit 5 stacks of sunders, but there are several times a moment of lul when neither Sword and Board procs, in which case I just spam Devastate. Looking at the threat values, it would seem that Concussion Blow and Shockwave actually produce more threat than Devastate, so I've made a note of including those in my priorities. Someone also mentioned that I should macro Heroic Strike to my Charge, so that when I Charge pull, I automatically get a quick HS and my usual SS that I try to hit before the charge ends. So for now my priority list looks like this:
Revenge > Shield Slam > Concussion Blow > Shockwave > Devastate
Instead of the old one:
Revenge > Shield Slam > Devastate
I'm still not sure which should be first, Revenge or Shield Slam though. You also mentioned Thunderclap. I generally only hit TC when I need to refresh the debuff on the boss. Should I hit it more often?
Also on the question of glyphing for Devastate, is it worth it? Devastate will hit for more damage with higher stacks but after the stacks are at max, it sorta of loses the benefit. Instead I figured I could glyph for Vigilance or Taunt, depending when Taunting off the other tank becomes pivotal.
This is where the lovely Satrina's Buff Bars comes in. I have made two seperate extra panels, one for myself, the other for my target. On those, i keep a filtered track of those buffs/debuffs that i care about. For example, on the boss debuff panel, i keep track of vindication (so that if it drops i can pop demo shout), sunders, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannyl
That's why i prefer a melee target always. Especially on mobile fights since they'll always be close and their dps uptime will be higher.Quote:
The exception to this is Festergut where the hunters and mages were in their groups, out of range of my vigilance so I could not change the target after the pull.
That's because i dont sport the nice hit & expertise numbers you have. Thunderclap cannot be dodged/parried so i use it to make sure something lands at the start.Quote:
You also mentioned Thunderclap.
I really hate macroing abilities together, it makes me lose control. I have my HS & cleave bound to mouse up/down with the roller on free rotation. If i want HS and especially spamming it, i give it a good whirl & it'll keep HSing. HS is naturally permanently on on single boss fights.Quote:
Someone also mentioned that I should macro Heroic Strike to my Charge
Tbh, it looks more & more like you're doing the right things but you're lacking the MDs. I've been tanking for my guild for 4 years now and i consider myself a good tank. I've recently joined a quality ICC25HC pug (invite only) organized by the top guild on our server. It's been a wakeup call, with the lowest dps ticking in at 10K. I can still maintain my threat but it takes a lot more work and threat IS an issue. The MD and tricks that i get helps enormously though. While i've had zero problems at any of the runs (except aoe packs), at BQL i was offtanking and since the MDs all went to the person they wanted bitten first, doing my best rotation plugged me in at 7th on the threatmeter and it took me a good 40 seconds to climb to the 2nd spot.
I believe the numbers show that the priority list, iirc is:
SS > SW > Rev > Dev for TPS. SW/Rev in some order @ #2. Also, I saw someone mention Con Blow is higher than Dev for threat as well.
Macro'd HS is good and bad. I have 2 Devastates for example, one with HS macro'd and the original. This gives me the flexability to choose which one to use, and in high rage environments, saves a few key mashes. I found it really helped in initial threat gen situations where I'm trying to keep HS up all the time before I build a threat lead.
***
Regarding Vig - I use Stinky to judge who gets Vig for Fester, if needed. That's the best warm up for judging who get its. Putting Vig on mid-fight during the first wing is one thing, but by Fester you should have an idea of who it goes on. In our guild, it's usually a hunter that pulls by far the most threat behind me, so even with MD, he's worth vig-ing (even built a macro to vig him, I called it my "Oh S#!%" threat button), except for fights like Saurfang or Torvan where range spends a good chunk of the fight on something other than boss, then it moves to the highest melee.
****
Regarding Glyphed Devestate. It never loses its value for threat. It just doesn't apply any more stacks. Dev glyph is >>>>>>>> Threat glyph. Glyph it! It gives you threat as if you are still applying 2 fresh stacks. Even so, SS, Rev, SW and maybe Con Blow are higher threat iirc.
It saved my @$$ in 25 with idiot melee DPS that loved to pop their trinkets and CDs on trash (spiking to 12-14k single-target DPS). Glyphed Dev and never had an issue with their lack of awareness again.
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...heet&highlight=
Second time I've linked this today!
My thanks guys, as always it has been quite helpful. Learn something new everyday. Already done another ICC run and things seem to have improved a little. Will have to wait for our next week's 25 alt run to make sure.
@Mellvar
Thanks for the link, I actually found another spreadsheet on this site as well, but which was out of date. Already given this one a whirl and seems like a very interesting tool. On average, the numbers for my avg TPS look pretty same as with the other spreadsheet so I know I'm on the right track.