warrior threat problem
long story short im having threat problems anytime a dps passes between 11-15k depending on the class. im not a noob, i do a LOT of research on my toon and roll. I've played with avoidence thresholds when most ppl were affarid to touch it, Ive made max dps builds and gear sets for tanking heroics and often top dps as tank. but i cant for the life of me figure this one out.i gave up my theorycrafting and went back to the standard spec and jem set with mongoose and still no resolve. Frankly, its really making me look bad. I pride myself in knowing what the hell im doing and this is making me look like a nob. not the impression i like to leave. anyone have this problem b4? again.. its only when someones passing the 11-15k mark, depending on the class. could it just be lag?
this is a really tough issue, sounds like youve done your homework and still no answer in sight. assuming this is a guild run you may just have to explain to these dps'ers that your nuking the shit out of the meter, and can simply cannot keep up in TPS, watch your aggro. since your on hardmode stuff im going to assume that they will understand and hopefully this might help out. (this is just a temporary fix i realize)
does the other tank have an equally hard time keeping up?
you mention lag, whats it typically at? because that would deff set your total TPS back if its bad,
edit: perhaps some of the DPS (rogue and hunter) may have to add tricks or MD into their normal rotation to help you keep an upper edge on this killer dps you have behind ya?
i can understand your quest to be the top of your game, but this may be what it takes as part of maxing out your role and using all utilitys available to you
For one.... are you using Vig?
For another: What content are we talking? Raids? If Raids trash? Bosses?
Since DPS is scaling faster than threat with the big zone buffs this is an issue you will inevitably lose the race to them. All you can do is get your hunters to MD and rogues to tricks you as much as possible. It also depends on the class, like if its a warrior or cat who's on your tail then all you can do is have a pally salvation them. As a high DPS cat I've recently been all over most MTs when fully buffed and have had to get salv'd once or twice most DPS race fights. It's not the Tank's fault really at this point.
He's talking ICC
Originally Posted by MellvarTank
ok, to answer the 2 previous posts:
as for the type of raid, its mostly 25 man icc.. reg or heroic dosnt seem to make too much of a difference. its rare in 10 man that i have a problem.
all of the 10 man progression i run is guild. and 90% of the 25 man is pug ( i run a 10 man progression guild. we dont focus on 25 man content)
i recently changed my spec and am now glyphing vil aswell. though ive never been a big fan of vil, (since its usually but 3-5 ppl in 25 man raids causing the problem) it seems a few modifications to my opening rotation has helped when adding the vil into the equation. But ive yet to try this out in a 25 man atmosphere.
Feralminded hit it right no the nose. hunters, ferals, mages, and some bad dks just scale much faster then me when they all crit b4 i even have 2 stacks of SA on the boss. this complied with some lag, and its a nightmare in a pug atmosphere.
but at the end of the raid, febel minded wow players only remember the graphics, not the math. so if i dont fix this. my quest for 25 man raids is over unless i build my guild into 25 man ( which i really dont want to do for several reasons)
QUESTION: anyone here have any experience with theorycrafting? im considering jemming some strength/agility for block value/ attack power threat. . . im well over the survival stats for any raid under 25h icc right now so its not a big loss. however i dont know/ have not found ANY info on how well these stats scale as you surpass thresholds. (ex- dodge scales well to about 40% so its the avoid stat of choioce). thoughts?
As for threat, build a threat set by subbing in some of your DPS gear (if you have any), changing your spec, and running different food/flasks. Survivability will take a hit, but you will get a substantial increase to DPS/threat. Other than that, perfect your rotation, vig high-threat DPS, get tricks/MD's from hunters/rogues.
Well the first thing I would change the Last Stand glyph to Devastate it will generate much more threat if its backed with the glyph. Every time if glyph Devastate I switch to a Shield Slam > Revenge > Devastate priority list.
Then max out the Gag Order skill just switch the one point from Focused Rage
What also helps a lot is switching to a slow DpS weapon. I normally use the Bloodvenom Blade form Saurfang 25 with Executioner on it because I like the effect of the enchant :).
I don't know about re-gemming, I always use my DpS gear (that give me 88% Armor Penetration) for the trash because it's fun to compete with the dps during trash fights :) and normal tanking gear for the bosses because I have very seldom threat problems with bosses but that requires some support from the raid and that is hard to get in random raids.
The next thing is changing your Vigilance target during the fight on the damage dealer that is pursuing you on the threat table. Also you should put Vigilance on DpS classes that don't have a passive threat reduction like hunters and arcane mages. And as a warrior you need vigilance to be en par with other tank classes so it is important that it's always active on the player that produce the most aggro.
So the last thing that you can do (but it's rather tricky) is using Intervene on the player which is second in the threat table because it will reduce the targets threat by 10%. Then charge back to the boss. If you are fast enough the boss is slightly moving (I use 2 mouse over macros for this).
There are a few things you have to consider. A boss with cleave, breath or tails wipe attacks is really dangerous when he's moved during the fight facing the raid.
Damage dealer especially melees won't always be in range (either to close or to far away) and it is possible that the boss will shorten the range between you and him so you can't charge back and if you are unlucky range dps with more than 110% threat will get in melee range and pulling aggro.
As I said, very tricky, only for few bosses and the easy way is to use Intervene in non-tanking phases. In most fights that require 2 tanks or more you can use this and on Sindragosa when she leaves the ground.
Also mocking blow as the first ability in a fight gives you 4 global cooldowns to built threat and you can pop Taut after the effect runs out so give you an additional 2 seconds do get on top. Challenging Shout also works but you need a global cooldowm to activate it and you have to be aware that the boss can get immune to taunting effects if you use them to often in a row.
So if you are in a PuG raid you can't rely on other players because they're mostly selfish.... well I don't want so swear :P .
Things other players can do are:
On fights that require more than one tank just let the other tank do the boss first. My warrior alt had a frost Death Knight as second tank in his 10 men group and when he is starting to built threat on Deathwhisper, Saurfang or Festergut I could basically just taunt and then stop doing anything and the DpS won't close the gap until the DK is taunting again (yes it's that bad :) ). It's no shame to pass the main-tank position if there is an other tank fits the job better you still have important tasks like keeping debuffs active or support the raid.
Yes, it will be a huge downer at first and this won't help you with the problems you addressed but after 4 years of tanking in raids I can tell you that it has do be done once and a while (like not main-tanking Sartharion because DKs and Ferals are overpowered!!!).
If you have another warrior in your group he can also use Intervene Def-Warriors are predestined for this but technically a DpS Warrior can also do this (but never will)
Also Paladins can use the Hand of Salvation every 2 minutes which also reduces the targets threat by 10%.
Many classes have skills to reduce their threat so if they not using them it is their fault of dying and wiping the raid :D .
Tricks of the Trade an Misdirection have been mentioned already in this thread so nothing to say there.
As mentioned before its hard to keep in touch with the dps especially if you are a tank that has threat modifiers on your abilities and rely on other players in the raid to preform. That also means you're screwed in random raids :P .
I personally rarely have problems with threat. I average around 10kTPS on most bosses (6.1 GS warrior). As far as trash goes, thats a different story. If I am not the first to attack and gain enough rage, its all over.
Originally Posted by Xeferith
Anyway, if you have at some point problems with agro, shout for tott or md. There isnt much what we can do at this point
Sounds like you have snap aggro problems instead of sustained problems, which is common. If you have hunters and rogues (you mention hunters), you should get the to MD to you, this shouldn't be an issue at all. If they don't that is a different problem altogether problem, it is raid teamwork and not gearing/play style.
Minor items, but ask for thorns and ret aura. Every little bit helps.
Put one point from Shield Spec to Gag Order to beef up your Shield slams. Get TidyPlates to see which mobs need the shield slam.
Other points to consider, although all of these will draw flak from a lot of regulars here:
-If you don't have survival issues, swap out all your reds (dodge/stam) to str/stam, and possibly your 30 stam to in your red sockets str/stam (such as your belt). The str-> block rating is less of a survival boost and more of a threat boos in terms of raw AP and SBV->Shield Slam/Damage shield bonuses.
-You are WAY over Def cap, swap out def/stam for hit/stam, provided you don't go over 8% hit.
-If you assume 46k unbuffed, each 5% boost to stam from the ICC buff is about 2300 HP, which is more than one Stoneblood. Currently, a stoneblood gives 1625 HP, which is nice, but the 25% buff more than covers the HP gains from stoneblood flask, and I haven't heard survival issues. Try running with an Endless Rage Flask (Buffed from 180 AP to 225 AP), it adds up. Also, 40 str/ 40 stam food is worth considering instead of fish feast.
Yea sometimes snap aggro can be a pain like on Lich king with the raging spirits but we have a Tricks/Md rotation and they each get sent to me.
Singletarget, you shouldnt be having problems unless the dps are lining up their biggest nukes & releasing them just as you're charging. Tell them to wait 2 globals and you should be fine. (Explaining that as a tank you're not, and dont need to be, hitcapped and that your first swing could and does miss. That usually gets across better than any other explanation to puggers.)
AoE tanking, forget it. Tabtargeting isnt an option i've found out. Unless you're doing your best rotation, 15K dps WILL pull off you no matter what you do, so the time to tab to another target, hit him once (for whatever good that will do to 70K starfalling boomkin and ofc no tank can hold that. grrr nerf aoe :P) and switching back is long enough for at least 5 dps to pull it off you. I place my trust on shockwave and the overpowered pallies on aoe trash fights :P
strangely enough, i never have aoe threat issues. i ive owned hor since day one. pffffft .. paladins.
Originally Posted by Fledern
anyway, i was wondering, is there an addon that can give a warning " back down you silly dk !! pull pullin too much aggro!!!" ?? that would be a big help
I don't know, every time I do dps and I'm in danger of pulling aggro (beside the info omen is providing) my screen flashes red and the border of the nameplates of my enemy turn red.
To know what threat level you're at is a basic for dps so if they don't know that their missing something.
What I usually do is telling the player via teamspeak that he is going to pull aggro if he's continuing, but I have no Idea if an addon has this functionality.
I know as a tank you want to control everything (I do!) but sometimes you have to let go an realize that many players are idiots and they deserve to die! ;)
the problem with this is: though i do agree 100%, dks or paladins dont ever have this problem. we warriors have to be far more skilled to accomplish what any idiot cant so as a pally or a dk.
Originally Posted by Scyla
someone up top made a suggestion, that was flask endless rage, crit food, exct. i did this tonight, and it worked. (this with a spec change and opening rotation change: - arms stance- retaliation- berserker stance- recklessness- defencive stance-charge- tk-hs- ss- sax5- rend)
for those interested, i suggest this opean.. its garenteed win
even on the fight ive had the most difficulty with ( marrowgar and blood queen) i had zero problems today.
thanks for all the help guys.. i got a lot of ideas out of this that i cant wait to try out.. hope you all get somthing out of it aswell
A main problem many less experianced Tanks seem to have is not abusing Heroic Strike, on a Single Target fight where the boss is on you the whole time you shouldn't even have so much as 10 melee's cause they should have been converted to Heroic Strike. Bind it to your mousewheel.
Fill out Gag Order and lose the points in focused rage. FR may be handy for content you outgear, but when bosses in ICC hit like trucks, you'll be at infinite rage most of the time. As has been said before, abuse your HS. Get glyph of blocking, it increases your BV by 100% after a shield slam and the duration of this buff is longer than the cooldown on SS, so it should always be up, greatly increasing the damage and threat of shield slam. Glyph of devastate is your friend as well.
Then there's the issue of the pull. IMO, the best way to go in is berserker rage then charge, using heroic throw and shield block while in transit. When you get to the target, shield slam, revenge if it's up, shockwave (cause it wont be dodged or parried and hopefully you're hit capped), revenge now if you didn't get it in before shockwave, then start stacking devastate. I find that shockwave and revenge do more threat unless sunder has been stacked completely, therefore using them in an opening sequence provides more threat. All this is useless however, if you're not losing aggro on the pull, but elsewhere in the fight.
When i was raiding consistently, I'd run with exceptional DPS pushing 14~15k and hunters who do over 100k threat in their first 3 globals and the only times I've had issues with threat are H DW adds and Raging Spirits on LK 25. I usually only received tricks or MD on fights where I wasn't given the opportunity to charge (LK and Saurfang) and Lady Deathwhisper.
Interestingly bad advice and misinformation. Blocking glyph gives 10% block value, not 100%, so I hope that was a typo. It also shies in comparison with devastate, and when the need for a defensive glyph, a taunt glyph and a single threat glyph is needed, devastate wins out. I don't really want to argue pulling tactics, but you never queued up HS on that charge but that's semantics.
You should be hit capped anyway? Wait a minute which boss are we talking about and when was this a priority?
I think im comfertable with my open now.. as its been working without fail since i developed it. as for glyph of dev, Im under the impression this looses its value after the 5th stack is applied...?
Originally Posted by Dreador
i used to roll full gagh order, and block glyph, but in a similar forum, i was recomended to drop block for viligence and add fr. ( they were sugggesting my problem was rage related). id have no problem going back to it, but frankly, after doing the math i came to realize that silence will basicly never happen on an icc boss and full gagh without block glyph accounts for about 1300 damage on ss crit. so i desided the points were better spent elsewhere. in the same token however, i found flask of rage and some str gems ( adding to block value) made a huge difference. so im more then willing to listen to other ideas.
the boss i most often have the problem with is marrowgar sadly. followed by lady death.. everything else (in 10 man setting) has been resolved. 25 man im having a bit more of a problem, but im starting to think thats a combination of lag and bad dps ( make fist.. mash keyboard as soon as tank pulls). since its most often a pug setting in 25, i have little kinship that would allow me to reason with them.
Ill go back full gagh and see how it works out with my new open. any further input is welcome! I love me some good blood boiling warrior talk! common fella's !! lets put our b@lls on the table, roll our bracers up and get down to busniess! if block glyph + gagh = win then i say dam em all. drop out the defence jems even a few stam with this 30% nambee-pambee bs icc buff, stack str. flask rage, and crit food. maybe even some spell hit.. turn tc into a consencration on steroids. whos with me!