Lich King 10 man.
Hello Tankspot. I'm not usually one to ask for help but it seems no matter what we do our guild's second 10 man group can't get reg LK down. Below is our comp.
DK Tank (Me)
Ret Paladin (x2)
We can barely seem to get him into phase two where he pushes us to the outter rim. What I am here to ask is if there are some tips/videos there show the perfect way to get him down.
I feel that once we get the mechanics down we can kill him becasue I am F'ing doing 9.5k DpS tanking >.> its kinda ridiculous. Everyone else is a little above me, so I know that dps is not a problem.
-Is there a perfect spot to tank him in?
-Should you even bother attacking the ghouls or juts let the necrotic plaque take them down?
We are attempting him again on Monday so I hope to get some good information to bring tomorrow.
You doing 9.5k dps is probably part of the problem. Let the Shamblings tank have some ghouls so he can stack the plague faster. DPS:ers should only do single target dps. There are some excellent guides and videos for the LK out there so I'd suggest utilizing your favourite search engine.
Maybe get the Holy Priest to go Disc? Will really help and take the stress of the healers. We tanked him at the teleporter and had the Shamblings just a few yards behind him faced away from the raid and I am the raid leader so I get the DPS to nuke the Lich King down to 74% then I start looking at how many horrors there are, if one is about to spawn and how many stacks of plague we have. I dont even bother wasting time with DPSing ghouls because they will die from the the consecrations, Divine Storms and of course your diseases as well as the plague so I never worry about them.
Then depending on if the horror has enough plague stacks to kill him, I tell DPS to push the phase and the raid who are already standing grouped up at the edge can simply walk onto the platform and split up into 2 groups so pain and suffering doesnt get to high in stacks. Kill spirits in order of which they spawn, dispell the paladin tank from Soul Shriek because if he is silenced then he cant generate threat which means the DPS has to slow down. On my Ret pally for doing it I made a macro which went like this:
/target (Tanks name)
/target Raging Spirit
I had 2 of those macros for each tank because we used 2 paladin tanks and that way by sacrificing a small portion of my DPS I could allow the rest of the raid to DPS harder. Then just move into the center and kill the remaining spirits and focus on the boss until Defile comes. It is worth knowing that at times a Val'kyr spawn time will align with the Defile timer so a could solution to this is to spread out around the outer ages of the inner circle then have the paladins do a stun rotation. I would HoJ the first Val'kyr and Holy Wrath if needed and the Healer would do the same for the second Val'kyr. If the healer got picked up then the tank would HoJ it.
Then its just a matter of moving in for Val'kyrs and move out for Defile until 42% and at this point call for a DPS stop if a Val'kyr is about to spawn and if not then push the phase and move back to the edge of the platform where you did the first transition phase and get back to positions and then repeat the first transtion with the difference that there is an extra Raging Spirit so use Bloodlust on this phase and nuke.
Then for P3 we just had the melee stay on the boss and ranged focused on the Vile Spirits, we ignored most of them because our Disc Priest shield was strong enough to absorb most of the damage.
Hope this helped, Good Luck!
I'd definitely get the holy to go disc. I disc in icc and it's usually with a pally/shm combo. It's alot better combo than pal/shm/holy is..just roll shields(shields basically remove the infest portion of the fight), keep up a mending, and keep penance ready for when people drop quickly.
As for the fight itself it doesn't sound like dps is an issue which is good..because we've always stressed the fight isn't about dps; it's more about situational awareness and just making sure you have all the bases covered. If you are handling the mechanics of the right properly it should take care of itself. We did the "i've waited a long time for this" last night and even delaying the fight that long we were still way ahead of the timer.
It sounds to me like there is a tactics issue more than a composition problem. This is how my guild does that part of the fight.
Form up a triangle with the LK, the Shambling tank, and the ranged/healers. Anywhere in the room is fine as long as they're not miles and miles apart and the Shamblings are faced away from the raid. Somewhere towards the edge (for the ranged/healers) makes life easier for transitioning to the second part of the fight.
Your Shambling tank should grab the first four ghouls that spawn, then the first Shambling, and go back to his spot. You pick up all subsequent ghouls, he'll grab the second Shambling. When the Shamblings enrage, your tank on them should try stun them. If the hunter can dispell the enrage, all the better.
Every Plagued person should run to the Shamblings (the back of them, they have a frontal AoE) and get cleansed within the 5 second window. This sounds easy but people can be a bit ... unaware ... of the debuff at first. Make sure that's sorted. If they aren't near the Shamblings by the time it'll tick, letting them die is always good learning ;)
All DPS should ignore Ghouls and Shamblings and focus on the LK. You can push him right over the 70% mark without worrying about timing.
The raid runs to the edge, the Shambling tank stays in Relentless Winter (avoiding those nasty Ice things and always facing the Shamblings away from the raid) and lets the Plague kill the Shamblings. You'll pick up the first (and possibly the second) Raging Spirit. He'll get the second/third ones when he's back.
Hope that helps :) Good luck :)
This actually is very similar to our 10man comp, especially with the tanking setup, which is the most important aspect of phase 1. Sorry for the novel, but this should help.
The Paladin should be tanking the LK and be in charge of dispels (he really isn't doing much else). I tank the LK on top of the small circle in the north, with the group standing about 10 yards north of me, so they can easily step out for ph2. The DK should be tanking the Shamblings off to the side. They're ideal for it because they can deathgrip the Shambling before it's even all the way out of the ground. The shambling should have it's back to both the MT and the group, and be standing about 5 yards away from where the LK is being handled, either to the east or west.
With this positioning, any disease jumps will not be lost, as there is always a mob within 10 yards.
When a group member gets the disease they must immediately run up behind the Shambling and be dispelled. This is the cause of many deaths as the shambling has more of a 180 degree arc in front of it rather than a cone, meaning standing off to the side or directly beneath it could cause the death of the person running up. Be careful to always stand directly behind it. If the person who gets the disease doesn't move immediately, the Paladin should just cleanse them after 2 seconds and the person it jumps to needs to run in. The Paladin needs to watch the timer to make sure his global CD doesn't interfere when the disease is about to be applied, as he may also have to cleanse a jump at the same time. When cleansed, that player must move back to the group immediately or may have the disease jump right back to them, wasting time and stressing the Paladin.
You will certainly get 2 shamblings in phase 1, this is a given. You'll decide whether you get 3 or not based on your disease control. The first shambling should be dead or near death, and the second shambling should have more than 5 stacks of the disease before you push the LK to 70%. If this is not the case, just continue until the third shambling is raised, and has at least 5 stacks. Phase 1 is all about control, not speed. All DPS should be focusing the LK solely, unless you need to stop dps in order to wait for diseases to stack on the Shambling, then they can change to the add to help soften it up. If this is the case, stop dps around 73% so you're close enough to push him through when ready.
All ghouls can be ignored, they will die during phase 2 when the disease continues to jump around.
When you push the LK through, the entire group should run to the platform, with both tanks staying on the same side while the shambling lives, and facing it away from the group. The paladin should hit the first raging with a taunt, and the DK should pull it off him when in range. Paladin should stand out of the Raging's cone to avoid silence and make sure taunt is always available, and keep cleansing. The group should completely ignore all adds except the raging who should be focus fired. The undeads will be taken care of automatically by the disease. When all the undead adds left from P1 are dead, the paladin should cleanse the disease until it jumps to himself, then run 10 yards away from the group and cleanse again to rid himself of it. If at any time the paladin is silenced by the raging, other cleansers should immediately remove the debuff from him.
This will become like second nature when everyone understands where to run with the disease, and moves quickly. Do NOT let others cleanse if they're not assigned as you risk losing your disease and slowing down the phase significantly.
Originally Posted by Fayre
Shameless necro bump...
Does this work? We're struggling a bit with how many adds to send to the offtank and at which point we should DPS Ghouls down.
Right now what we're doing to get into Phase2 is hit or miss. Sometimes it works great - sometimes we end up with a third or fourth horror because we don't want to push the phase because stacks didn't work out.
We could change tanking assignments and I could take the Shamblings and keep them inside Remorseless Winter (75k raid buffed, 4 piece if needed and multiple stuns for Enrage) and it seems so simple/good to be true to do it like this.
At this point we're letting the OT take all the Ghouls but we switch after the third wave to DPS Ghoul adds down... I'm thinking we could BL off the bat and push 70% easily if this method works.
Anyone have any additional insight?
our 10 man group runs 2 healers a disc priest and a shammy. Since I am a ret pally I dps and cleanse phase 1. With 6 dpser's we take less damage than when we tried it with 3 healers.
Just get the plague delivery working and get done with Phase-1 without waiting for extra Horror spawns, it's ok to have Horror alive for transition because they should be just tanked away from raid and let plague kill them off.
Originally Posted by kuponuts
Your DPS in pahse 1 should be such that you enter the transition phase before the 3rd Horror spawns. All DPS should be on the LK for the enitre 1st phase and your horror tank should just taunt the ghouls of the MT whenerver he has a spare taunt.
When entering he transition phase you may have 1 or possibly even 2 horrors alive. As long as youøve been stacking the plague on them correctly they will die from the plague in short order.
Tanking them in the remorseless winter just seems completely unnecessary.
What we had been doing, and granted this was our first night on LK ever, is experimenting with how many Ghoul waves to feed to the OT before we AOE'd them down.
Even using AOE we could still push LK to transition before the third Horror spawned - so I don't think we will have any trouble pushing him at all when we ignore Drudge Ghouls.
So the MT (which is me, Warrior Tank) should grab as many Ghouls as possible and let the OT just taunt the Ghouls off when neccesary? Or should he just take them all?
The Drudge Ghoul spawn lines up with his AOE (he's a DK tank) usually on the same timer (or very close) and he usually just takes them all.
We are actually REALLY quick and effecient with Necrotic Plague dropping - we do that very very good. We're in and out quickly - raid awareness is there (Defile is a different story... but we're going to try something different this week for that also) for Phase1 and 1.5 for sure.
I guess it was my misconception that we just absolutely should NOT transition while ANY Horrors were alive. Now that I think back - we actually DID transition with a Horror once and the DK just had him off to the side it it died shortly thereafter.
So, in light of everyone's advice (thank you very much) we'll do this:
Warrior tank on LK (me) - DK offtank picking up Ghouls with AOE (he basically drops it on top of me and death grips/taunts others when no Horror is coming) and all DPS will stay on LK. I pick up stray Ghouls and he takes them off me when possible.
All DPS stay on LK and push him to transition. We step out and the DK tank seperates about 10-15 yards away from the raid. I pick up Raging Spirits while all the Ghouls/Horrors die to Plague Stacks. He'll jump in around the second/third Spirit to help.
He takes the Raging Spirits and I move in as Phase2 starts to pick up LK. I solo tank him and eat Soul Reaper as we stack up for first Valk. Valk comes, slow/snare as we fan out and get ready to place Defile.. (we are going to try "If you get Defile, you go to the right... everyone else move left" idea to see how that works.. our first night we make it through 3 Valks and 3 defiles, third Defile was on me (MT) and I botched it) we kill Valk, then Spirit as we prepare for the Valk/Defile on close timer.. etc.
That's my proposed plan as raid leader to go over Friday night.
We were succesfully hitting 'benchmarks' all night during our Friday attempts, although we got a little bit sloopy towards the end because we were all tired. I think this Friday we have a good chance to make it to P3 and maybe beyond thanks to everyone's help.
Thanks all for your contributions to my question and all others I've read here, we appreciate it.
The OT, if gear allows, should take everything not named Arthas. Just think of the "OT" as the Necrotic Plague tank. It's perfectly fine to transition with horrors up. Just stay away from the raid until everything is dead and the plague is dispelled.
You might want to consider switching tanking roles. DKs have excellent tools for dealing with Soul Reaper, and warriors have Vigilance to deal with ghouls and horrors and Safeguard/Intervene to help with Soul Reaper. (I hate hate hate the MT-OT bull.)
Yes that all sounds fine. As you say with the DK as your offtank he can just drop death and decay to pick up the adds.
Originally Posted by kuponuts
Tranistioning with a horror alive isn't a problem, as stated previously the plague stack should be high on him and thus he will die quickly.
Regarding P3, having the defiled move 1 way and the raid the other is workable (as this is the way 25man guilds seem to handle it) but it does require that everyone but quick on their feet. The alternative is to spread for each defile, then you know that you'll never have more than 1 person in it.
If you can make it past the 2nd defile, which is the one that clashes with the valkyr, then you get to the 2nd tranistion phase.
Defile is really the only raid wiper on LK so just make sure everyone's really awake for that.
What would be nice to know is exactly why you are wiping. Is it off tank death? There is an enrage for the Shamblers that needs to be tranq'd. That will solve that problem.
Is it infest? That is an ability that does 7k dmg to everyone and keeps ticking until the target is over 90% health. The longer it ticks, the harder it is to get rid of. Disc priests work great for this, but with the buff, it usually isnt that hard to deal with. Its on a strict timer, so you can pre-hot, shield people and even get them to use healthstones, etc. This is a two second cast, so there is time to get heals going.
Is it main tank death (not likely if you are on pace to push before the third Shambler)? If so, it could be that LK is getting too many stacks of Plague Siphon. Each one give the LK 2% more damage and he gets one each time Necrotic Plague jumps (times out or is dispelled). If youre bouncing this around amongst raid members, that could be bad.
The little adds hit for immaterial amounts. Even when a healer grabs one for a bit, its not significant damage (just annoying). I doubt they are your problem.
My gut feeling is that you are wiping to one of the three mechanics above. Let us know which one it is and we can help you out. Even better, if you have combat logs of wipes, there are guys on this site that blow me away with the statistical analysis. They will fix you up immediately.
Yeah our OT is geared decently. Today he gets his 4 piece bonus so he'll have even another cooldown.
Him and I are still discussing tanking assignments. I think it's best for me to take LK in Phase1 because I have the most EH and he has the best tools to grab the adds in my opinion just laying down death and decay, etc.
For Soul Reaper.. I've worked out a cooldown rotation using 4 piece Sant. Warrior bubble... the thing bubbles me for 15,000HP WITHOUT using any health increasing trinket/CDs on top of it.. so that's a 15k bubble every minute.
Soaking was another dicussion - he has AMS, Deathgrip, diseases, slows, etc to soak spirits... but I have almost 15k more HP then him, chain taunting with Vigilance (he's in the low 60s... I'm at 75k) and a good set of cooldowns to use on my own (15k bubble, etc) for Spirit Soaking.
I think we could both do either at this point, it's more about what we're comfortable with.
Defile awareness will be the big thing, as I'm sure it was for a lot of guilds. I think we have a good chance of getting him Friday night in light of this advice. We've made it through three Defiles before, including the one that lines up with the Valk - just made a silly mistake on my part.
Thanks again for all the advice.