https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...xugx2KA&hl=en#
updated the sheet to be the top 120 data points for each fight.
No DK as WoL doesnt split the data up for DPs/Tank for their specs.
Graph and Data for each fight.
Printable View
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...xugx2KA&hl=en#
updated the sheet to be the top 120 data points for each fight.
No DK as WoL doesnt split the data up for DPs/Tank for their specs.
Graph and Data for each fight.
renamed
thanks Kazey.
A Word on the graphs. It is wise to "ignore" the first quater of the graph, and concentrate on the latter half to 75% of it. this takes out the gimmicks and gets the data settled to show the real differences.
That's interesting. Looks like it's generally around a 1k dps difference, which would match what I generally see in my own raids.
Odd that Warriors do so well on Putricide and Bears go to crap there.
It's kind of sad that Warriors are otherwise averaging 1k dps less than their bear and pally peers (at least when you throw out the top 25% as you suggested).
It might be a good idea to just shave off the top 10 or so and graph the parses ranked 11-130. That way you don't have the gimmick or bugged parses showing at all.
You could also accompany those dmg out graphs with their corresponding dmg intake and show ratios of DPS out vs DPS in.
Sample size for Putricide is probably not up to par with the other fights yet, so I'd hesistate to jump to any conclusions on that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muffin Man
I've been speculating that the dps gap is going to cause problems for hard mode roster picking, but I didn't realize it was *consistently* 1k, I figured there would be more fights where the warriors are a little closer.
Could the discrepancy be due to the fact that most of the fight only 1 tank is tanking, 1 is controlling the abo and one is "dpsing" ? It's not a normal tank and spank fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muffin Man
Why the conflicting philosophy? | Tank | WoW Blue Tracker | World of Raids
I'd like the devs to see that spreadsheet. You should pass that on to a blue post or three.
Yeah, I couldnt even get 120 Bear parses for that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorgrim
could be because it was new, or could be because there is something tricky/difficult about that fight for bears and other tanks are being swapped in. No idea on that.
I don't raid anymore, so I don't know the encounter mechanics, but actually that is good. I'm presenting straight data, i don't know enough about the encounters to slew it one way or another.
I also play Pally, Warrior and DK, so I am not class biased. I do have thoughts on my own anecdotal experiences tanking on all 3, which are reflected in the data presented, but not in any way deliberately.
I'd like to flesh this out with more data, but i need to think a bit on what data to collect, from where and why, to make sure i am presenting as much of an unbiased view as I can. I'd rather the graphs and data convey the message.
Wow, this data really depressed me. I didnt realize that the numbers were this bad. I read GC's comment on it and frankly, I cant imagine that in a tightly tuned fight 250-500k damage could be considered a rounding error. That is the difference between a kill and running out of attempts in some cases.
If you read through all of my comments, I am generally not the type to QQ about this kind of thing. But Blizzard has all of this data. They know exactly how much damage is being put out by the different classes. I would think they probably have 4-5 people on staff that just look at statistics. In this particular case, assuming the data is good, the case that a warrior tank is less desirable is undeniable. Throughout the forums, I have read a lot of purists talk about how its not any harder to heal a warrior tank than any other. My experience in heroic TOC was very different, but even if we accept this as true, that makes our survivability equal to other tanks that do significantly more damage and there is very little that a protection warrior brings to a fight that another more desirable class cannot bring.
I know it is a VERY hard thing to keep all of these classes tuned and balanced. And I dont mind at all that we do less damage.... as long as its a trade off. We should be harder to kill if we provide less dps.... I hope Blizz can find a way to take the WotLK stigma that the warrior has worn and restore our role as an acceptable tanking solution.
Good point. That's actually the reason I skipped looking at Festergut.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzlestick
Also a lot of Guilds still prefer to have a warrior on the boss for easy sunders. So I can see the other tanks being demoted to Abom duty more than warriors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warwench
/rageQuote:
Originally Posted by Warwench
If a tank is doing 1k dps less on average than other tanks, that's almost a half million less damage over the course of an 8 minute fight. That's a really significant difference when it comes to damage intensive fights. Really really significant.
WoL Putricide parses count Mutated Plague as damage done by the tank, even though it's friendly fire damage. Until WoL filters this properly, you can't use Putricide as an indication of tank DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muffin Man
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
The data taken by itself is definitely depressing. I imagine that the DK tanks damage will also be superior to warrior's.
However, and I have asked this before, is there a way to determine the effect sunders have on the overall melee DPS during the fight? As much as I despise being so low in terms of DPS while tanking, I realize that sundering bosses will increase melee damage quite a bit.
That being said, I have to contend that there might be a valid reason for the low DPS warrior's put out, and that the loss in DPS by warrior's is countered by melee increase in damage overall.
Sunders can be applied by other classes. Paladins, Druids, and DKs also add damage to other players, through raid buffs like Blessing of Might, Leader of the Pack, and Abom's Might/Icy Talons or through debuffs such as Faerie Fire, 3% crit from judgments, or ebon plague.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilrum
All of the buffs and debuffs tanks offer can be supplied by dps classes, including sunder, so it's largely irrelevant. Sunder is not going to automatically be available in the same way that some of the other buffs/debuffs are, but it's still quite possible to have it in a warrior-less raid.
If armor reduction is the reason for Prot's low damage, it's a pretty poor reason considering Prot isn't the only one who can bring sunders to the table. I've often kept sunders up as fury, and so have the other DPS warriors in our guild. So you're not really losing anything by not having a warrior tanking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilrum
Whilst sunders do increase Raid dps any Warrior can apply them. I often go Fury and am the only Warrior so will apply them and whilst this affects my dps its not a huge impact. It takes 5 gcds at the start then 1 every 30 seconds, so over the course of a 6 minute fight 15 gcds out of 240 and sometimes I will not actually have anything to queue in those gcds anyway so do not actually lose any dps time.
So not having a prot warrior only really increases the raid dps by a small amount assuming you still have a warrior in your raid. I believe that having to keep sunders up has a bigger effect on an Arms Warrior than a Fury one I still dont think it will be significant enough for the sunders a prot warrior applies to amount to them doing 1k less dps than other tanks.