Tankadin gemming/enchanting

Now, I may seem the noob here, but over the past few weeks I've been learning a lot more about tankadins and our gemming/enchnting priorities. I don't quite know the biting point for diminishing returns on dodge/parry yet, however I do know that overall, agility is better than dodge. I've been reading Elitist Jerks threads (before nyone says anything, I do know that most of their data is older and outdated, yet I'm not quite willing to discount it entirely), as well as some threads on Maintankadin.com. I'm pretty new to theorycrafting, though I have a lot of combat experience, having geared myself for Naxx without guild help back before Ulduar, through 6 weeks of 3-7 heriocs a day, and not letting myself get rusty since then.

Here's my Armory link: The World of Warcraft Armory

Ive been asked several times why I don't gem parry more, and I've not been abble to come up with a suitable answer. As you can see, I have one parry/stam gem, and I've been tempted to go for more. I'm shying away from stam stacking because I feel it isn't as effective as gaining avoidance/mitigation. I used to stam stack before ICC, and got a lot of trouble for it from several people in my old guild, as they were of the opinion all tanks apart from druids should be pure avoidance. I've since come to the conclusion that they didn't know what they were talking about, yet I want clarification.

Long story short, I'm bloody confused, and could do with some advice from some tankadins that actually know what they are talking about. :)

Always gem for stam, and when meta comes in do dodge+stam. Enchants are always either stam, or defense ( minus a few exceptions )... The primary exception here, is that you are either way over defense cap, or under defense cap. Drop the +20 dodge, and replace with stam.

Your spec:
Also, move the points from Holy to ret. For ICC you're going to want the 3 points in crusader. Improved HoJ really isn't needed either. Something like [0/53/18] is a proven, and solid build.

Enchants:
Your echants look okay from what I can tell, replace the agility chant on your gloves with either armsman, or stam.

Just my 2 cents worth. This is how I roll, and while I'm always looking to improve, these are what I've found works well for me.

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Originally Posted by devZero

Always gem for stam, and when meta comes in do dodge+stam. Enchants are always either stam, or defense ( minus a few exceptions )... The primary exception here, is that you are either way over defense cap, or under defense cap. Drop the +20 dodge, and replace with stam.

Your spec:
Also, move the points from Holy to ret. For ICC you're going to want the 3 points in crusader. Improved HoJ really isn't needed either. Something like [0/53/18] is a proven, and solid build.

Enchants:
Your echants look okay from what I can tell, replace the agility chant on your gloves with either armsman, or stam.

Just my 2 cents worth. This is how I roll, and while I'm always looking to improve, these are what I've found works well for me.

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With the ICC avoidance nerf I'm not quite sold on the stam stacking to be honest. One of our paladins has a really good avoidance set and seems to be far far easier to heal than other stam stacking pallys I've seen.
Just my 2c.

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Originally Posted by craptacular

With the ICC avoidance nerf I'm not quite sold on the stam stacking to be honest. One of our paladins has a really good avoidance set and seems to be far far easier to heal than other stam stacking pallys I've seen.
Just my 2c.

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I guess it depends on your tank/healer combo. Festergut will easily destroy a tank that stacks avoidance, but fails the RNG.

I wanted to get away from stacking stam, to make it easier on my healers. I know there are some bosses that need soak tanks, but...isn't that why Blizzard made druids? :S I have heard that Festergut packs a punch though, so I'm kinda 50/50 at the moment on what to do, as I'm my guild's MT, and we don't have any geared bears yet.

One thing I have noticed though, you don't get much avoidance by gemming it, a realization that caused me to post this. I'm currently looking to replace almost half of my expertise gear, as I'm far overcapped, and could do with the parry/dodge rating instead. I'm not sure if per point, I get more EH on avoidance gems or stam gems. Anyone know where I can find an EH calculator?

As for using dodge/stam to active the meta, read: Get the Hell out of Dodge and you might understand why I stay away from dodge when I can.

Looking at the talent tree: I cannot under any circumstances justify getting Vindication. If there is a less useful talent, I don't know what it is. 46 AP? I mean seriously, that's not worth two talent points, even for mass AoE tanking, like in Onyxia.
Pursuit of Justice....I can't even remember the last time I was disarmed. I know it's happened, but I couldn't tell you where or when, it was that long ago. I may take Seals of the Pure out, and get Crusade however, as I didn't know that talent was there. :P

I've fiddled a little, and come up with this:The World of Warcraft Armory
Let me know what your thoughts are guys. :)

I'm sorry, but Vindication, while not much, is a mitigation stat. You can't say anything that offers mitigation is useless, and it's rated higher than Conviction. But, since they're play points, you can do what you like. Regarding stam, I stack all stam, and I'm still over 30% dodge unbuffed, and close to 30k armor. My avoidance is high, and I've got high stam. Any tanking gear you pick up should handle all the avoidance you really need. There's just no need to gem for anything else imo. Making it easier on your healers would be to have a high health pool, and high avoidance / mitigation. Not stacking stam on your gems give you high avoidance, but what happens when the RNG fails, and you don't dodge/parry that hit? You're not going to have the stam to absorb it, and your healers are going to have a panic attack. I use my stam trinkets 90% of the time, and I also have dodge/armor trinkets that I keep on hand. Pursuit of Justice is a great talent for the movement increase, not for the disarm. It allows you to enchant stam on your boots, and remove Tuskarr's. A tank that can move quickly, is a tank that can position quickly, and get out of situations quickly.

I'm confused....how does reducing the opponents AP give you more threat?

Edit: OK, I can kind of see how Pursuit of Justice would help, but I don't use Tuskarr's anyway, and I do just fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tyoko

I wanted to get away from stacking stam, to make it easier on my healers. I know there are some bosses that need soak tanks, but...isn't that why Blizzard made druids? :S I have heard that Festergut packs a punch though, so I'm kinda 50/50 at the moment on what to do, as I'm my guild's MT, and we don't have any geared bears yet.

One thing I have noticed though, you don't get much avoidance by gemming it, a realization that caused me to post this. I'm currently looking to replace almost half of my expertise gear, as I'm far overcapped, and could do with the parry/dodge rating instead. I'm not sure if per point, I get more EH on avoidance gems or stam gems. Anyone know where I can find an EH calculator?

As for using dodge/stam to active the meta, read: Get the Hell out of Dodge and you might understand why I stay away from dodge when I can.

Looking at the talent tree: I cannot under any circumstances justify getting Vindication. If there is a less useful talent, I don't know what it is. 46 AP? I mean seriously, that's not worth two talent points, even for mass AoE tanking, like in Onyxia.
Pursuit of Justice....I can't even remember the last time I was disarmed. I know it's happened, but I couldn't tell you where or when, it was that long ago. I may take Seals of the Pure out, and get Crusade however, as I didn't know that talent was there. :P

I've fiddled a little, and come up with this:The World of Warcraft Armory
Let me know what your thoughts are guys. :)

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Vindication is not -46 ap. That's what you read at minimum level. At level 80 it's -574 AP, exactly the maximum amount of AP bosses can have. It reduces the damage intake by an average of 20%. More for special attacks like Unbalancing and Impale.

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Originally Posted by Tyoko

I'm confused....how does reducing the opponents AP give you more threat?

Edit: OK, I can kind of see how Pursuit of Justice would help, but I don't use Tuskarr's anyway, and I do just fine.

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Sorry, long day at work... I meant Mitigation
Edit: Vindication is pretty much a mandatory talent because most tanking doctrines dictate that you do everything within your power to improve your survival and then tune back things for threat as needed. Since talents are relatively rigid even with dual specs it's easier to go for survival via talents and switch gear/consumable for threat. Also you can't always rely on other sources of the AP debuff so the cost is relatively low for that convenience.

Yea, thought it was mitigation. And bosses have a maximum AP? :S There is still a lot of theorycrafting I've yet to do, but that's a shocker. Hmm...it's not looking that bad after all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tyoko

Yea, thought it was mitigation. And bosses have a maximum AP? :S There is still a lot of theorycrafting I've yet to do, but that's a shocker. Hmm...it's not looking that bad after all.

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they have had a maximum ap since the level 60 days, I think.

Also, here's some threat priorities...

1HWS > TbtL > DivStr > SotP > Crus > Conv > Reck <-- This for Ulduar
Unless you're fighting an undead, demon, humanoid, or elemental, in that case it's:
1HWS > TbtL > DivStr > Crus > SotP > Conv > Reck <-- This for ICC & ToC/ToGC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by devZero

Also, here's some threat priorities...

1HWS > TbtL > DivStr > SotP > Crus > Conv > Reck

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Crusader pulls ahead of Seals of the Pure for DUH mobs. Which is basically "everything in t7, t9, t10, except Northrend Beasts"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Synapse

Crusader pulls ahead of Seals of the Pure for DUH mobs. Which is basically "everything in t7, t9, t10, except Northrend Beasts"

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I fixed it, accidentally hit the submit button

Since ToC I've steered away from Reckoning, as it became less powerful than in the more mob filled raids. I've now found other talents that I've needed, so I don't know if I'll get it, unless someone shows raid specific math, demonstrating that it has higher threat generation possibilities than, say, Seals of the Pure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tyoko

Since ToC I've steered away from Reckoning, as it became less powerful than in the more mob filled raids. I've now found other talents that I've needed, so I don't know if I'll get it, unless someone shows raid specific math, demonstrating that it has higher threat generation possibilities than, say, Seals of the Pure.

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Seal of Command + Reckoning specs are showing amazing potential in aoe tanking.
Maintankadin &bull; View topic - Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

I prerer to use Seal of Corruption, and spread it with a glyphed Hammer of the Righteous. It works wonders for long term AoE.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tyoko

I prerer to use Seal of Corruption, and spread it with a glyphed Hammer of the Righteous. It works wonders for long term AoE.

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Yes, it does, and it's a long time favorite, but reckoning+ SoComm simply does better. He asked for an use for Reckoning!

I'm starting to understand now. Been reading that thread for the past 5 minutes, and...not to be crass or anything, it's blown my fucking mind. I think I need to take a few minutes out to let this sink in, hehe. I'm going to have a fag, then I'll get back to you.

P.S. I only found out about Maintankadin.com a little while ago, so still going through a lot of it's forums, even some of the less advanced ones. While the information they provide is very nice, they REALLY are a bunch of geeks, aren't they? ^_^

Well, the "Advanced" tab has that name for a reason. Theckhd's the official Pounder of Headaches.