Synapse it's not the threat. Any warrior that knows his business will tank large aoe packs decently. Maybe not at the level of a paladin but still adequetly.
The real problem is the one Akolon's #2 point, ie slowly incoming adds. Once your shockwave & thunderclap are into cooldown and you have already 5+ mobs on you, picking up new spawns becomes pretty much impossible.
Now if this was one or two encounters, i could shrug it off but the way i see it is Blizzard is moving into implementing this type of add spawning more & more, meaning the lack of a "set it-forget it" aggro grabber (notice i said "grabber" not "holder") becomes more of a problem.
Dont anybody reply with "but DnD/consecrate ticks every 2 secs, mobs can run past it". I'd rather work to pick up the single one that managed across than having to pick up 6 from 6 different raid/party members in different directions.
DnD ticks once per second, though sometimes stuff can run over it if there's enough threat coming from range.
That is the vulnerability of Warrior tanks though, it's not that their AoE tools are weak, it's that they have spikes with enforced cooldowns, and a mis-timed use leaves you vulnerable.
To be fair, though, Warriors have the most single target tools to throw around and lock in targets, and a catch-all AoE taunt for the situations where things are just *too* out of hand. That's part of what I love about Warrior tanking. There is a feel of really being able to control pulls.
Don't forget to pair up that wonderful AoE taunt with a shield block. Hello damage shield. :D
I used to hate aoe tanking. I've always run with health bars above adds / mobs so that i could taunt the ones that run away. Then i heard of ALOFT addon. The aloft addon made AOE threat much much more manageable. It reduces the frantic 'tab - smack - tab -smack - tclap - tab.... - swave -- tab...' to more of a predictable routine. Sure, it doesn't grab new adds like a consecrate, but I enjoy AOE tanking as a warrior in its current form. Plus dmg shield + sbr + sbv + shield block makes it easy to hold once you got them, just remember to switch for bosses :)
I apologize for not conveying my ideas more clearly at the start. I have no problems holding aggro on large mobs as a warrior, I just wanted to bring this up to see other peoples opinions on the topic. We have a lot of amazing AoE tools, it's just that if you don't time them well, you could be in some trouble when new adds spawn. The threat isn't the issue, it's having to either time it perfectly or frantically run around trying to pick up adds when stuff is on cooldowns and things fall apart. I did not mean this to be a QQ about warrior AoE, and if that is how it came off, then I apologize.
Originally Posted by Synapse
The issue is not the amount of threat, it's making it sustainable. Our two main aoe abilities are both on individual cooldowns AND still locked by the GCD. Time it all just wrong and you have as much as 7.5 seconds in which you cannot use a TC. A LOT can happen in 7.5 seconds. And shockwave is worse in that's it's frontal only and EXTREMELY short range.
Which is why I suggested Deep Wounds. Almost every Prot war has it, every Prot war should have it, and once applied it's a ticking dot independent of anything else we're doing. Fire and forget.. Adding extra threat means all we have to worry about is getting a crit on TC or something, which isn't difficult even with our abominable crit rating.
Exactly, but how to get that initial threat? As pointed out by the previous posters, the trouble is when you are doing fights with many waves of adds that need to be picked up quick. That's where you will run into problems if you time your TC wrong. Once you pick them up, Deep Wounds is a great way to hold onto them, but the initial pickup can be problematic.
Originally Posted by Eisen
Sword and Board proc finishes the cooldown on Shield Slam OR Thunderclap. (The proc could give us a buff which makes the next SS or TC used not be subject to the current cool down).
That or the previously posted Cleave change.
Things I don't really want to see:
Consecrate / dnd type "Pool" on the ground.
A dot on TC (mainly CC reasons)
anything that would change my AOE rotation to only 1 or 2 buttons.
I agree, I wouldn't want it to be so easy mode that its just sitting there and hitting a button. I like having a warriors flexibility, such as warbringer, but I wouldn't mind something that makes it a bit less stressful on the original pick up of a whole bunch of adds ie. Lady Deathwhisper fight.
Originally Posted by drae
Extending TC's radius about 5 yards alone would make pickup so much easier on that fight.
Originally Posted by Arodon
Oh, and also not having her drop Death and Decay in front of where they spawn EVERY BLOODY TIME!!!! :mad:
*pants* OK, I'm OK, just need to calm down. That fight annoys me.
I think warriors are fine in all aspects just takes a little bit of work more so than other classes. In all examples listed above it wasn't the lack of ability that made you fail it was you as a player, or other players that made you fail.
Think about this. You are tankinging 5 adds, then 5 more agro. Shout is down, TC is down, and SW is down. What do you do?
1st you target the closest possible and charge them, followed by a cleave, which most the time when a pack is incoming the mobs are close together your cleave will hit 3 targets with the glyph not to mention your second actions should be dev, and if you are glyphed for it it will hit a second target.
Why does this work? because you aren't waiting for the mob to come to you. So you get the snap agro then resume your aoe threat, and get in position so mobs dont hit you from behind.
2nd. switch to the fourth and Fifth targets and resume your rotation. If you must taunt one. The last one if you haven't gotten agro on it yet use mocking blow and wait for taunt to come back up while cleaving nonstop (rage should not be an issue) TCing nonstop and positioning yourself so Shockwave, when it is up, hits all targets. Have trouble selecting them? Thats not a mechanics issue thats player issues. Usually this is enough to get me out of any situation that calls for me to aoe tank oh shit handle aoe pulls.
No class is meant to be able to hold the agro of every single mob in an aoe pull, that why you have to switch between targets.
Here are a couple of suggestions. IF you suck at aoe threat. Make them assist off you. IF you are one of those people that stay on one target, this will keep alot of people alive. Also if you are a clicker try to move away from that its bad.
Needless to say no matter the class, race if you stay on one target more than the others you are going to lose threat period. It may take a tad bit longer for a dk or paladin to lose threat that way but not to much longer.
And if you are tabbing through the targets glyphed correctly for aoe tanking, specced for it as well, and using keybinds you will hold your own as a warrior aoe tanking.
The only think most people are right about here, is that it takes more skill to grace to aoe tank properly on a warrior.
What if they aren't coming in close enough together to cleave? What if while you're charge-cleaving them, the mobs in the pack you WERE tanking break off and start chewing on DPS? What if two mobs break off to two different DPS, because no one remembers what focus fire means? What if the cleave misses one mob, who makes a beeline for your healer? And taunt is down because you used it a second ago to pull something back because DPS think skull means "the last guy in the group you should attack"
Originally Posted by Jackey
Don't get me wrong; even in the scenarios I outlined it's possible to resolve them. But the point is, why SHOULD we work harder? What do we do SO much better than any other tanking class that we HAVE to have a more difficult aggro mechanic as a balancing measure?
Mind you I don't want a D&D/Consecrate "pool" effect either...but I would like something a little more constant. Heck, just reducing the CD on TC by a second or two would be a MASSIVE improvement.
Originally Posted by Eisen
This. While your little layout on how to do things was great, stuff is going to happen that is beyond your control. Having a 1-2 second shorter CD on TC would help tremendously if s*** hits the fan on an add heavy fight.
Worst part is that TC used to be a 4sec CD and they upped it to 6 for (to my knowledge) no good reason
The thing with warrior AoE tanking is that many think we suck at it because we have to work at it (and many suck). We just have a little more to do over other tanks.
We have thunderclap on a 6 second cooldown, we have cleave on a melee swing (glyph is nice too), and shockwave on a 20 second cooldown. While that is going on, you can tab target (or click as some do) and rotate shield slams, revenge and/or devastate. Enemy nameplates works wonders.
After some practice it becomes a fairly easy habit. Once you have it down, you can tank as well, if not better, than other tanks. But that's just me.
The point being made is not that its difficult for warriors to hold onto mobs once they grab them, but that its the original pickup that's difficult. On add heavy fights, when your TC and SW are on CD it can get really dicey, really fast while you run around trying to collect them all.
Originally Posted by Shenron
All of those what if situations are just a likely to happen to any tank class period not just warriors. And like the guy said before this post, many people think that warrior aoe sucks, but it is only the people who suck not the mechanics.
I have seen everything the game has to offer, and have never gotten disgruntled over warrior aoe threat. Have there been times that i have lost agro on an aoe trash pull? Sure. But, in those same raids I also saw paladins, dks, and druid lose agro as well. I guess they are broken too?
There are other options as well to give people an handicap if they lack in skill. Especially in a raid environment. And like i said if something wierd does happen usually it is not the tanks fault, it is someone else in the raids fault. While the tank tries to clean up their mess. A few safety precautions to this:
Have the raid wait at the last pull spot and either pull it yourself, or have a hunter MD it to you.
Have hunters and rogues misdirect you as much as possible.
Put vig on someone who you feel will pull agro off you so your taunt has almost a 0 cooldown.
Mark Targets and assign crowd control.
Make people assist you at the start and single target that one mob down once that mob is down you should have sufficient aoe threat on the other mobs. Or have the MT tank skull while you build aoe threat on everything else. Once skull is dead have loose.
I don't think they need to have warriors changed at all. Its fun having to work to build aoe threat unlike the other classes. If you can't cut it as a warrior then I feel you should reroll a paladin, dk, or druid.
The above suggestions are things i have seen done, not things I have participated in. I generally have no issue with aoe tanking if im using my seondary aoe tank spec.
As has been mentioned the problem is all warrior AOE threat is snap aggro. There's nothing to fill the cooldown gap between thunderclap and shockwave beyond damage shied, which isn't reliable, and cleave, which won't hit everything.
Back in the Wrath beta they added a new warrior ability called Bloodbath. It was basically an AOE rend that did initial damage and then a weak-moderate bleed dot to 5 targets with the bleed doing 4x damage against enraged targets. They ended up removing it but I'd love to see a revamped version for Cataclysm.
I'm sorry but some of the situations listed where warriors "lack" are just garbage. If you have slow incoming adds, a warrior tank is the BEST tank to pick them up. Devastate, shield slam, heroic throw, concussion blow, taunt, thunderclap, shockwave, shield bash, demo shout, challenging shout, cleave. If all of those are on cooldown you should not be playing the class.
Also, if you are tanking 5 adds and 5 more spawn, you are going to wipe anyways. There is NO single-tank situation in the game where this occurs. Ever tried to tank the guantlet in Ulduar with a consecrate? Obviously not, because those adds run right on through it and annihilate your healer. I'd take my single-target abilities over consecrate or DnD any day of the week.
^ To add to that, demo shout does jack squat if there's a healer in range. Case in point, picking up whelps in Ony. This is where careful management of your tclap/shockwave CDs comes into play as demo shout at this level only reduces AP.