Originally Posted by Satorri
On the flipside though, I think people generally forget the extra tanking cooldown you get with a 3 point investment... a 20+K heal on a single global with a permanent pet. Not too shabby! It's also easy to get Rune Tap too with an Unholy tanking spec, and if threat isn't an issue you can use a 3 disease DS...
After trying many specs, I have not found any with a higher single target DPS than my standard blood build. Please note, that I am talking single target DPS...not threat...not AOE.
In a standard tank oriented build, blood is king as far as I have tested. Now I may not be correct, but if I am not, I would like someone to post an exact spec and rotation which can beat it.
Typically in blood build, I will take 3/3 spell deflection, and probably 3/3 improved icy touch. I will probably not use Will of the Necropolis or Rune Tap, as I personally don't seem to get much use out of either.
If I really want to up my DPS, I will drop both of those, and go to a 5/5 Necrosis build.
Keep in mind I will always have the 5/5/5 trinity, plus Vampiric Blood.
Survival oriented - http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcErVhhIcb0fosxhxZ0gb
DPS oriented - http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcErVh0Icb0fosx0xZ0gh0x
Rotation is IT-PS-HS-HS-DS-DC-DC or HoW- DS-HS-HS-HS-HS
My challenge is for someone to find a tanking spec and rotation that will exceed the DPS output of my builds against a single target. I will verify both and have equal gear i can use for 2H or DW builds.
When did this change happen? I am not doubting you, but I guess I missed that in the patch notes.
Originally Posted by Sterbefall
Necrosis not affecting RS was caught in the hotfix that adjusted PPM effects.
Generally I am assuming it was an unintended glitch and will be fixed in the future (since that was a pivotal value in that talent for tanks who otherwise get less and less value as their gear improves and RS replaces more regular swings).
I originally thought it was unintended, but I'm reading elsewhere that threads reporting this on the official forums are getting deleted without developer comment. I fear it may be intended (or at least something they won't fix).
Threads don't get deleted to avoid attention on a subject, they get deleted when they're repetitious or have been answered elsewhere. If I had to guess I'd wager it is a known bug that is on the list and doesn't need repeating, but hey, I could be wrong, maybe they want to devalue the talent a bit for tanks (incidentally that will pretty easily make Sudden Doom my preference for Blood tanks =D).
I've now updated the FAQ and rehashed an old calculation I did comparing the relative values of the tree-specific cooldowns.
Long time reader and huge appreciator of your very detailed guide to the DK. I do have a question though and I hope you can explain things to me a bit better. After reading your guide and playing around in ICC a bit, I decided to try Unholy for my spec. I chose to go with the "DC Hammer" style because you mentioned the "stacking" component to DC. I figured.. a DoT that's easily maintained should produce decent threat. However, I found that UB didn't do a whole lot for me in the end and it really wasn't worth having. After running several tests and spamming DC on my targets, I didn't notice any "stacking" damage effects of keeping it applied within the 10 second window. UB itself produced very low output thus very low threat. So, I wanted to post on here and ask you if I'm missing something or if I'm not understanding what you're referring to when you say it "stacks". Could you explain that a bit more clearly for our benefit? Thanks in advance.
Ok, so the way UB stacks is not purely additive, from all inspection. In other words, it is designed such that the value scales with the value of your Death Coil, but it's made to not go terribly beyond it.
The way it stacks enables it to simply not waste value. If you use your Death Coil to refresh the effect, UB takes the remaining damage from the existing DoT and adds it to the total damage of the new application, then redistributes the ticks. What this means is UB should remain a static value relative to how well you use DC. I've gotten upwards of 6-7% of my total damage, but that comes with an asterisk.
UB was nerfed in 3.3 just after I wrote this portion of the guide and the proportion was cut down. That will reduce the value. The thing to bear in mind here is that this move is not a power move, it is not your main threat tool, but it is a competitive tool for that 1 point spent. I am going to add a note to that effect on the main guide.
It also has a strategic value for tanks that extends beyond the overall value. In short, as tanks, we are not just interested in overall output, but in the needed application of threat at a given time. Consider this, if you are stacking the ability that stacks once per second from the start of the fight (which I don't find easy requiring you to reapply once every 10 sec), in the beginning it will start at ~60 tps, but if you continue to stack it you can push upwards of 1-2k tps just from this ability, fight mechanics willing. The problem is that is not easy. It often requires spell damage components and smart use of AMS, along with heavily RP generation to get that compulsive stacking. Note that reaching that size tick does not increase the overall contribution of the ability, but in localized threat it raises your baseline noticeably. Ultimately this value depends on you getting the tick off the ground and everytime it drops you start over.
In ICC Unholy is a bit trickier than ToC where I did a lot of my research on that particular method. Particularly, there are fewer unavoidable or minimally avoidable magic damage effects, but you can find them if you look. Coldflame on Marrowgar, DnD on Deathwhisper (requires a LOT of running around if you really want to use it, most of the rest is too random to be reliable), and you don't see much of any magic damage from there until you get to the Plague Wing.
Thanks for replying to my question. I now see what you're talking about with UB. I tried this out in ICC and while I had enough RP to burn DC quite a bit, I just wasn't seeing the potential. I didn't intend to sound like I was using it as a main threat tool because, frankly, compared to everything else we have, DC is the lowest priority (imo) for threat. I was under the wrong assumption as to what you meant when I tried it, and I thank you for clarifying that information.
Satorri - thank you for an extremely detailed and interesting thread :)
Looking for some assistance from you or other frost tanks.
I'm going to preface this by saying that my main is an Elemental Shaman. I rolled the Dk to tank in order to do something completely different from what I'm used to doing. So far, i've been loving it. I am a 2h frost tank, that uses a single disease rotation on AoE pulls. I've only been tanking for about 3 weeks now, mostly in heroics (1 Ulduar weekly OT position - woot!). Here is the thing, when I am in heroics I find myself constantly being second guessed by others in my party who criticize me non-stop for not using DnD in my AoE rotation - I'd say 75% of those that do criticize go on to say that they've got a blood/unholy dk tank themselves. I've tried to explain that with a single disease rotation (glyphed HB) that it is not necessary and so far i've almost always been able to hold threat on all pulls (even with an ICC geared mage from my guild running with me). The only time I've had issues is when running with a ICC geared hunter who would start AoE'ing right after my initial HB...
I feel my rotation on AoE pulls is fairly typical, and was built on my research in several tanking threads - HB-BB-BB-(BT if up and another BB)-OB-FS dump (unless OB procs KM in which case I use DC until HB is up).
My gear is ok I believe (WoWArmory Link), and as I've stated, I've only ever had aggro issues that one time with the geared out hunter. But the criticisms are starting to make me second guess the single disease rotation, and I've been scouring tankspot, EJ, anywhere to read about the single disease vs dual disease DnD. I know I read in this thread that my weapon may be lacking a bit, as it is only 219 and that a 232 is really the best for single disease (Mourning Malice). I really don't have the experience or expertise in DK tanking to know if these people are just uninformed in terms of frost single disease, or if I am indeed really doing something wrong... as it is, I've pulled myself from tanking for the time being while I do more research (to much chiding from the guild mage who misses their instant queues :P)
Stand by your convictions. The game is full of people who will want to tell you how to play without actually understanding how it works.
DnD in 5-mans makes it *feel* safer as it guarantees coverage on things, but if you're using a single disease method you shouldn't even see that. And what's more you should have much better snap threat, albeit some vulnerabilities if you're against folk who outgear you and put in a big burst of threat while you're stuck on cooldowns. That's when you'll need to use your tricks to rein them in, taunt, death grip, Blood Tap, etc.
I have run into this situation as well. I have even directed certain especially vocal people to Satorri's guide if they were really interested in knowing more about my priorities/rotations. Unfortunately, things sometimes degenerate from there and I have to remind them that if I wanted some jerk to tell me how to play my class, I'd be over on the official forums.
Thanks Satorri - will do :)
And great suggestion Kagenote. I will indeed direct them to this post should I come across it again.
First of all, great post! I just hit 80 on my DK about three days ago and have been using your post to get started tanking, and it's been really helpful.
Originally Posted by Satorri
One thing I noticed though was your equation, shouldn't it be
( If: (Diminishable Dodge) > (Diminishable Parry) x 1.85 ) since dodge has the higher cap?
About the AE tanking with single-disease Frost, you can always opt for HB -> DnD in front of you -> BB if you know people outgear you badly.
This pairs best if your Frost spec is for 5mans only - say on an alt. Pick up Chillblains and glyph HB and you got an instant AE snare, so even if someone was to outaggro the mob can't leave the DnD fast enough and will get aggroed back onto you.
Ha, good catch Yun! I didn't even notice I did that.
2 errors on the Frost (might be because of recent changes):
* Rime is a 15% proc chance per button press. It is no longer linked to the amount of connects you do. (This would've been imba in DW ofc)
* ToT doesn't seem to act the way you work. First of all, I have seen plenty of MH fails while the OH still did damage. Surprisingly... I have yet to see one the other way around. It would seem to me as this works identicly to the above Rime mechanic, where every use simply has a 100% proc chance to proc the OH swing. This is also in line with the latest PPM changes, KM being MH only and can ofc be easily tested by a lower level DK on the heroic training dummy.
Can you back that up with some hard info Wartotem?
I expected them to do something about the Rime proc sooner or later (it definitely was working the way I described it but I haven't had my frost spec for a couple weeks now, and I didn't use it for a week or so before that).
Specific proof would be:
For Rime a tracker of some sort that can show the proportion of Rime-HB to OB hits. If you do a test only using HB on Rime procs that should do just fine.
For ToT that should be easy, if you can link any of the strikes with an odd number of connects (i.e. miss+dodge+parry = odd number).
I'm not on much this week, but I'll see if I can't do some naked tests on the heroic dummy. The Rime thing is in the tooltip though, although I can't recall when it was changed, as I don't remember there ever being patch notes about that.
It doesn't say specifically that it can only proc once per cast. It was what I was figuring was an oversight that it actually proc'd way more than it should if you believe it is supposed to be once per cast.
It may have been fixed, or the real culprit may have been or may still be something not keyed to the number of hits, but it is pretty clear when you go from a 2-hander to dual wielding that you *got* more procs.