Gemming for Expertise and Hit

Hello, this is my first post after having read a lot over the months here on tankspot.

I was looking for some advice on gemming for Expertise and Hit ratings. Currently my Expertise and Hit ratings are very low, and as such, I can sometimes have difficulty holding aggro. Here is the link to my armory:

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...asz&n=daregone

I have good gear (not great), over 4500 Gear Score, and a 2501 wow-heroes score. Only a very few epic item level 200s left in my gear.

I know I need to get my Expertise up first, but I don't know any other way to do it then to gem it. Is this the right move? I will lose dodge, stam and defense. Expertise is currently at NINE (2.25% reduction in dodge and parry) and Hit rating is 194.

My stats for defense are:
Defense: 553
Dodge: 24.73%
Parry: 20.4%
Block: 22.22%

Unbuffed HP at 35636

I currently have slots for 14 gems, right now I have five +30 Stam, six +10 def/+15 stam, two +10 dodge/+15 stam and one +10 parry/+15 stam.

I was thinking of removing the dodge and parry gems and replacing them with three +20 Expertise.

Also I was thinking of removing three +10def/+15stam and replacing with three +10Exp/+10Hit.

In total I would lose +20dodge, +10 parry, +30 defense, and +90 Stam and gain +90 Expertise and +30 Hit.

Is this worth it? Is there another way, short of just getting completely different gear. Would this make a big enough difference, or should I swap out more? Is there somewhere I can go to see what this will do to my stats before actually swapping out these gems?

Your advice is greatly appreciated.

I wouldn't suggest using straight +20 Expertise gems. I'd ask for your armory but it's down now but I'd probably suggest taking out the 3 purple gems and replacing them with the +10 Expertise +15 Stamina gems which I believe are called Guardian's Dreadstone or something like that.

And if you do want to replace the Enduring Eye of Zul gems that you are using you could use Vivid Eye of Zul gems which are +10 Hit Rating and +15 Stamina.

I would strongly recommend never using any hybrid gem that does not include stamina in it for your regular tanking set. Avoidance sets and block sets are different of course but as far as your generic tanking set or you effect health set always make sure all of your gems have Stamina in there somewhere.

If threat is your issue I'd definitely get your expertise up. Like Biigfoot said, replace all your red sockets with 10 exp / 15 stam and I'd replace your glove enchant with expertise as well. If your having threat issues it's most likely due to you being under the expertise soft cap and the 15 expertise enchant would help more than the 2% threat in that case.

I'd even recommend pickup up the ring from 5 man ToC over the signet of winter.

I'm guessing your primarily tanking heroics from looking at your gear being BoE / Badges, so your glyphs should be fine for that.

Is it single target or packs that are giving you trouble?

Can you tell me what rotation you are using? I wouldn't start gemming for expertise and hit unless you are using a proper rotation and still having threat problems. Another way to really increase your threat is by switching out Glyph of Sunder Armor with Glyph of Devastate, Glyph of Sunder Armor only helps on AoE packs while Glyph of Devastate while increase your single target by great amounts. Also Deepwounds will add huge amounts of threat.

If you make those changes while using a rotation of Shield Slam > Devastate while spamming Heroic Strike you shouldn't have any threat problems and will be able to continue gemming stamina.

If you really want to take things seriously start using expertise/stam food rather than the fish feast.

Thanks folks for the info.

My rotation is pretty standard for AOE: Charge, Spam Thunder Clap, Shockwave (whenever lit), Devastate, Cleave (for rage dump), Shield Slam .

For single, it's Charge, Shield Slam, Shockwave (when lit), Heroic Strike (for rage dump), Devastate. During the fight it's primarily Shield Slam, Devastate and Heroic Strike. I will usually throw in a Thunder Clap occasionally on single targets for the slowing effects as well, but I don't spam it.

I would say mostly it's the packs that give me trouble, and occasionally a boss might get pulled off of me. I do think it's expertise related, and I will take the advice and change my glove enchant and look to re-gem for a little extra expertise using the expertise/stam gems. I guess until I can get some gear that actually gives me expertise, I won't be able to get anywhere near the cap though.

I'd ditch everyone of those defense & dodge/stam gems in lieu of expertise/stam or straight stam. The ONLY socket bonus' worth pursuing are 9+ stam ones. Don't socket for avoidance, don't socket for defense unless you have to. Every wrath enchant gives more defense and sacrifices less stam then any gem. You can optimize your EH better by enchanting 22 defense on your chest and the pvp enchant on your shoulders, then swap you meta-gem to the 2% armor 32 stam one. This should place you very close to the 540 cap, and afford you much more EH.

For threat:
Expertise > hit. Read here. - I wouldn't socket hit gems anywhere. I would only socket expertise if you neeeeeeeeed to reach the softcap of 6.5%. However when it comes to threat, it's far more likely your rotation or heroic strike spam that is capping your threat rather then your gear.

My gemming rule of thumb:
Stamina everywhere I can. One purple exp/stam gem to activate my meta (preferably in a red slot, accompanied by a blue one, so I score a socket bonus). Only match socket bonus' if it's 9 stam or higher.. if I am matching sockets for a stam bonus, it will always be exp/stam for red, and def/stam or (cringe) hit/stam for yellow. I hate yellow sockets.

What is the target number for hit rating for tanks (prot pally, in my case)?

Xu

The target is being able to hold aggro. If you can hold aggro, you've hit your target.

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Originally Posted by Takethecake

I'd even recommend pickup up the ring from 5 man ToC over the signet of winter.

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For reference, the TOC Ring has expertise, which you need. I can't recall how many times I have vendored/DE'd the sucker, so it should be easy to obtain. It sports alot of stamina once you pop in a 30 stam ring (125 stamina).

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Originally Posted by drae

I'd ditch everyone of those defense & dodge/stam gems in lieu of expertise/stam or straight stam. The ONLY socket bonus' worth pursuing are 9+ stam ones. Don't socket for avoidance, don't socket for defense unless you have to. Every wrath enchant gives more defense and sacrifices less stam then any gem. You can optimize your EH better by enchanting 22 defense on your chest and the pvp enchant on your shoulders, then swap you meta-gem to the 2% armor 32 stam one. This should place you very close to the 540 cap, and afford you much more EH.

For threat:
Expertise > hit. Read here. - I wouldn't socket hit gems anywhere. I would only socket expertise if you neeeeeeeeed to reach the softcap of 6.5%. However when it comes to threat, it's far more likely your rotation or heroic strike spam that is capping your threat rather then your gear.

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I would agree with most of this statement, especially that the 22 defense to chest is much better than 275 HP. The only time you would ever use 275 HP is if you are so far past 540 defense with no gems or enchants, you are doing ToGC25, and ICC gear did not exist.

I disagree with shoulder comment, in so much as it is a great idea, but you are not there yet. Stick to the Sons of Hodir Shoulder enchants until you are past the 540 without any enchants, and the swap over to the pvp 30 stam enchant shoulder patch. Once you get there, then the above poster is correct, the pvp patch is the way to go.

Hit has a twofold problem. Once is threat, and the other is TAUNT. The soft cap for hit is 264ish, but even at 200ish, you are doing reasonably well. However, as your gear improves, your hit might dip down, and so will your threat, but as posted earlier, keeping up expertise should help on that front. The taunt is another problem, as expertise doesn't help there. Most tanks glyph taunt, which is fine, but bear in mind that your other taunts are not affected (challeging shout, mockling blow, etc.), which is probably not an issue where making your taunt land is crucial (switching tanks like gormokk, etc.), but just be aware of this.

So yes, go with expertise/stam gems wherever there is a dodge/stam or parry/stam gem. until you get shoulder replacements, go with 30 stam there, the dodge bonus is not worth it.
Replace necklace with badge necklace, it also sports some hit.
Replace weapon with a tanking weapon, TOC has a nice one (again, more expertise).

Replace the rest of the yellow gems with either hit/stam or stam gems, it's your call as to how close you want to be hit capped vs maximizing stamina. Also, plan ahead. While the TOC ring is nice, the Clutch of Fortification from triumph badges is a bigger upgrade. It has alot of EH (note, EH is stamina AND ARMOUR, those who stam stack while completely ignoring armor gains can pretty much go back to heroic pugs, the vast majority of raid damage is still physical, only a few gimmick fights have more magical damage for which you would stack stamina AS WELL AS magical resistance anyways in lieu of armor).
While getting threat stats naturally from gear itself is nice, you should be able to swap out a few pieces with all survival stats and still hold threat.

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Originally Posted by Daregone

Charge, Shield Slam, Shockwave (when lit), Heroic Strike (for rage dump), Devastate. During the fight it's primarily Shield Slam, Devastate and Heroic Strike. I will usually throw in a Thunder Clap occasionally on single targets for the slowing effects as well, but I don't spam it.

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You need to use revenge and concussion blow, and prioritize your offensive abilities differently. There is a flow chart on these forums that gives a general idea of the priority list.

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Originally Posted by Bihn

You need to use revenge and concussion blow, and prioritize your offensive abilities differently. There is a flow chart on these forums that gives a general idea of the priority list.

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If you are specced and glyphed for Devastate there is actually no need to use Revenge and Concussion Blow it can sometimes actually be better to use Shield Slam>Devastate. Shield Slam Devastate rotation will give you overall more threat so in a threat intensive situation it's probably best not to use Revenge and Concussion Blow. But I agree with you that for the majority of encounters you Revenge and Concussion Blow are useful for the extra damage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by krc

There is actually no need to use Revenge and Concussion Blow it can sometimes actually be better to use Shield Slam>Devastate. Shield Slam Devastate rotation will give you overall more threat so in a threat intensive situation it's probably best to not use Revenge and Concussion Blow. But I agree with you that for the majority of encounters you Revenge and Concussion Blow are useful for the extra damage.

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This is only true if you are spec'd for devastate. I'm also going to assume you really meant what I edited with bold.

Yeah I should probably edit that.