25 Man Guild w/ 10 Man Issues

With the help of my officers we have recently created a viable 25 Man Guild that has cleared 25 ToC and Ony the past two weeks. We have not gone back into Ulduar aside from attempting heroics. Before the 25 raids were viable we had two successful 10 mans running through 10 ToC and 10 Ulduar.

As on now we have been running 25 ToC/Ony/Vault on Tuesday, and then (2) 10 ToC/Ony on Wednesday. This week and officer suggested splitting the (2) 10 ToC groups to (1) on Wednesday and (1) on Thursday.

I am just curious as to what other 25 Man guilds do with their 10 mans? Should I have message board sign ups? Collect all the schedules? Let the guildies create their own 10 man teams? I would love to hear what other guild leaders have done.

Our guild calls Tuesdays "Loot Tuesday". We 25 man Vault / Onyxia / ToTC in less than 2 hours. Wednesday is progression night, in that we spend our raid time wiping in 25 ToTGC. Thursdays we label "10 man night". I invite everyone online into a raid group and separate synergies and or loot conflicts (like, don't pile everyone who needs a 2h into the same group). The last 2 weeks we've had 30+ online on Thursdays, so we do 3 groups... although to pull something like that off you need players who are proficient in their offspec to fill tanking / healing holes (since you normally wouldn't have 6 tanks in a 25 man raid). After all raids finish, we create 2 "A-Team" groups with emphasis on synergy for heroic 10 mans that continue the following night.

It's good to make it clear to your players that they may be benched when constructing 10 man raids in a 25 man guild, and if their ego can't handle it and they complain... remind them it's just the way the cookie crumbled this time.

It seems we are running a similar setup. I will likely run 25 vault/ony/totc on Tuesday. Make wednesday the 10 man night, and then start running 25 ToTGC on Thursdays.

However, I am trying to decide whether it makes more sense to run 10 TOTGC on Thursday.........

We raid 4 nights a week usually
wed - ony/togc25
thu - toc25 (usually finsih early following with toc25 alt run or toc10 alt run)
sun - togc25
mon - togc25

we don't organise 10man officially but we do have several (at least 3 per week) togc10 groups using in game calendar invites, these 10man raids usually happen on off ngihts (friday/sat) or after official raids.

Take last night for instance. 10 Man ToC's were scheduled for 9:00 server. We had 25 people on, but only 3 tanks. We decided to run 25 Ulduar till 10:30 and wait for another tank to log on. Ulduar was a disaster and it seems that everyone forgot how to play. We couldn't down Ignis, which to me was absolutely ridiculous. Anyway, come 10:30 we had the 4th tank and ran (2) 10 Man ToCs. Of course the complaints started to flow. I made an announcement that if you want to speak to me about the raids wait till after, and I will not be responding to whispers until after the raid.

A concerned active and loyal guildie posted on the boards. He had sat out. He generally stated that he realizes the officers have been discussing the condition of our raiding groups for the past couple of weeks, concerning the number of people invited vs. the number of people that show up, fairness of raid opportunities, and the balance of specific raid groups. A couple of ideas he gave were
"1. First and foremost, we need more tanks and healers. In the last month we have recruited only one or two tanks and healers, and a dozen or so DPS. We have the same problem in our guild that this server has in general, and that's a huge amount of 'useless'(DPS) raid members, and few key raid members (tanks and healers).
2. Secondly I don't think that permanently assigned raid groups for 10 mans are a good way to approach things. I understand that this method would create a consistency for each week, but I believe that, due to the randomness of drops, the pre-existing friendships in our guild, and varying levels of skill in specific classes, assigned 10 man groups would create an imbalance of gear and success for the groups. As a progressive guild that is aiming for endgame in Icecrown, I do not believe it would be in our best interest to have a set of 10 players with better gear and skill, and a set of 20 other players that have sub-standard equipment and experience.
3. While I would say that assigned raid groups are not the way to go, having a dictated set of players offered the opportunity to raid each week is, I think, a good idea. I think we can all agree, that if you are serious ( as you can be about a video game ) about bettering your character's gear and your skill with your character, then you should assume a level of personal responsibility for such actions. What I mean by that is that if you are given an opportunity to raid in advance, and you click 'accept', you should be there. No dicking around, being late, not having flasks, not being enchanted, etc.
4. Having an assigned list of raiders each week would eliminate the need for people sitting out - if we decide to do 3 ten mans in one week, then we should have 30 invites go out. And if there are extraneous circumstances during the week and somebody has to step out, we usually have enough people online to step in.
5. As far as 25 mans, standbys are acceptable, but not in the quantity we are having them. For example, we had 7 people on standby last week. That's absurd. There should be a max of 4 (tank, heals, 2 dps). Again, being more efficient with our raid invites would be a good solution to this problem.
6. As far as determining who gets invites each week and who doesn't, a spreadsheet would be a good tool. Also, a set of basic rules that we can all agree on would also be valuable. Rules like, if you on time, well geared and enchanted and prepared, you should be guaranteed to raid 3 out of 4 weeks in the month. Also, 25 and 10 man raids should be separate in accounting for who sits out, as the gear is vastly different. Of course the main objective with invites each week should be to construct the most efficient group while still being fair - we shouldn't have 5 melee DPS one week, and 5 ranged the next."


I think some of the ideas are good, some are impractical or impossible to organize, and some are just the way the cookie crumbles.

I posted it so people can give their thoughts as I am sure these are common issues within 25 man guilds, especially ones just starting to build.

I have to run to a meeting but i started using the in game calendar to setup 2-3 ten man teams. I created 2 RL positions, had them pick the days they could lead it. The signup goes up and those that can make it make it.

One thing that stopped no-shows or the fly-by-night committment was i made a rule that a no-show in a 10 equates to loss of 25-man raid slot.

Proper notification excuses the action of course.

Something to consider. It is just a game but your committment is your committment. If people do not have the respect of their fellow guildmates to keep the committment in the 10s then i do not need their services in prime time.

Anyway, got to go.

Good Luck.

Calintara
GM of FAIL
Drenden

10 man groups creates a lot of issues, thats why we've decided not to organize 10man groups officially, as a 25man guild.

There will always be a group better than other and the ones stuck with the "B Team" will never be happy, if you try to make 2 groups with equal strength, both group might not clear much. And also, friends will also be wanting to raid together.

We tried organising togc10 for 2 weeks, it just created more issues than its worth. People complaining not being in group, or being in a slightly worse group.

I don't know what you want to focus on, 10 man or 25 man? both is just too hard to manage, imho.

I think the rewards for organizing both are still there.

It's important to remember that a successful 25-man raiding guild is more than 25 players, in a practical sense. In the post by ck5uperman, his guildie complained that 7 people on the waitlist is absurd. Probably the most important thing a guild can offer their members is consistency, and vice versa. By consistency I mean offer a capable raid for the planned content, in both experience and synergy.

We have a raider rank that mandates 75% attendance per week, which is required to earn points in our loot system. If any player with the raider rank falls under 75% attendance in a rolling 2 week period without prior notice, they are demoted and we recruit for their role. It doesn't matter why a player doesn't show up, we don't even ask for excuses. Usually players freak out and rage quit because they can't take responsibility for their actions... but really then what are we missing out on - the good ones will stay and earn their rank.

Anyways back to the point: I truly believe 10m totgc can help in your progression in 25, for a couple reasons. First and foremost, gear. Sure, some guilds cleared totgc25 wearing no totgc10 gear, but it could certainly help. Besides gear, togc10 offers a marginally lower level of concentration, since the gimmicks in fights hit much harder than normal mode (for example, you can live through 2 fire stacks in togc10 but in 25 you'll require a heal). If you can get 20 raiding in togc10 for 3+ hours, you will see improvement in your 25togc, given proper balance and strategy.

25 TOGC is like, very hard. Every raider needs to play really well, as a 2 second brain fart will most likely wipe the raid. We are making progress, though, as we have seen Icehowl a couple times now. I predict we down it next week.

gl Fishz, hope you down him. I always appreciate your posts.