Warrior AoE threat
How do you guys maintain AoE threat?
My regular approach is to first TC -> Demo Shout -> Shockwave -> Saronite Bomb -> Switch to Battle stance, Retaliate and back to Def Stance (two-click macro) -> If necessary taunt / AoE taunt-> Re-apply TC.
While using the abilities above I usually stay on Skull and just HS. After the sequence is finished (assuming there are still 3 or more mobs) my priority is usually TC -> Saronite Bomb -> Shield Slam -> Revenge -> Concussion Blow -> Devastate on alternating targets with as many HS's as possible.
- Do you use Cleave instead of HS, even when it's not glyphed?
- How much threat does Demo Shout provide? Is it worth re-applying even before it has expired on the targets (assuming Thunder Clap, Shield Slam and Revenge are on CD)?
- How many mobs (3? 4?) minimum before Shield Slam etc is better than Saronite Bomb?
- Switching to battle stance for Retaliate takes a few seconds (ie two global CD's before ready in Def Stance). How good is it?
Please suggest improvements to the above!
Wow saronite bombs lol...also I wouldn't recommend relying on retaliate. Anyways there's heaps on this sort of thing around these forums...here are my comments: 1) Don't demo shout for threat 2) Cleave cleave cleave whilst aoe tanking (even without glyph) 3) As I said I would skip the bombs/retaliation What I normally do is charge, TC, shockwave, slam first target, then start tabbing around as required, making sure to use TC/SW on cooldown (and cleaving nonstop as rage allows). What I've started doing lately is use a slow weapon (I use Serilas, Blood Blade of Invar One-Arm - Item - World of Warcraft) and you can basically just spread devastates around (they crit for 4k with this thing). Mixed with cleave/TC/shockwave and I can put out some awesome AoE threat :P
charge-cleave-tc-shield block....do my reg ss-rev-hs-dev rotation. I spam cleave and tc whenever it is up. I honestly dont think i ever use demo, maybe during raids, however if it was a huge mob pull gone wrong i would use it. Mark your main target if you can as you go along, and concussion blow when it is up. Shockwave i use sometimes, i like to keep it up incase a loose add starts to lose aggro just incase.
Honestly all you need to do is, Heroic Throw the caster mob(or #2 kill target in instances w/o casters), then charge your primary target.
Shield Slam the first aggro target, TClap, Switch to 2nd priority, shockwave, cleave it up, Tclap, click 3rd target, Conc Blow, keep spamming cleave, 1st target should be dropped right about now, if its not, get new dps. The only thing I would do with additional mobs is possibly switch to the 4th target and hit it w/a revenge/cleave and then back to #2 with a quick taunt as after skull drops the aggro will catch up quick.
This is how I do almost every pull in heroics, and that's going a bit overboard, you don't even need to do all that.
Combat is a fluid situation and you should always be the one providing the direction. Always. You need to know exactly how close your dps are coming to you in a short period of time.
I hold aggro off ret pallies, dks spamming HB, no one pulls off of me. You need to make sure you know what you're doing, and they also need to know what they're doing. Most pugs I see have people that just aoe crap, and if they're aoe'n straight out, they're probably not pumping out more than 2-2.5k dps, pretty sure a tclap/shockwave/tclap+cleave rotation would keep it off most pugs.
Saronite bombs: Not needed.
Retaliate: Great and fun, but also, not needed.
Warriors are so easy now it feels like I'm playing a tankadin when I'm tanking, except I get sunder and better utility. GG P******s.
I usually open up with thunderclap just to grab initial aggro of everything along with a cleave just to get a decent hold. Once I get everything nice and gathered in front of me I'll hit them all with a shockwave. Now that I have a nice starting aggro on everything I'll pop shield block for some extra threat on damage shield. Next I switch to the primary burn target and go through my normal threat rotation but spamming Cleave instead of Heroic Strike, along with thunderclap and shockwave every time it's up. After a bit I'll switch targets... there's no hard and fast rule. It's just about monitoring threat, seeing which mobs are being attacked, etc. If there's a caster in the group I'll just leave it alone and let spell reflect hold aggro on it.
I still think warrior AOE threat is weak with pure AOE packs like the flower trash before Freya. There's just too many things to cleave and stuff tends to get away while I'm waiting on thunderclap to come off cooldown. Retaliation helps but... 4-5 min cooldown.
Originally Posted by Wars
As of now I will start Cleaving! Except for Cleave and using Revenge ahead of CB this is pretty much identical to my own rotation when there are only limited number of adds (say 3-4 or less).
However, in ohh-shit situations where you pull additional aggro or get 5-6 mobs I think both Saronite Bombs and Retaliation are viable options. My warrior is my main so I don't know every sintance inside out. I tank it my first time inside, which also means there will be the rare occation where I get aggro from a patrol etc.
Blizz have stated many times they don't want warriors in one stance through entire instances, ideally they would like to see it slightly more dynamic. I know that isn't the case today but to me the numbers from Retaliation and Saronite Bombs seem quite favourable. I would love to see you prove me wrong though, it does make the rotation a bit more complicated...
I use demo shout after a TC sometimes, but it's only on huge AOE groups (8+ mobs) and mainly just to make sure I tagged them all with something. It also could be useful if a large group of adds join a fight while TC/Shock are on cd (just to put you above everyone's proximity aggro - which will usually lead to some damage shield threat). Use cleave when there are more than 2 targets. Also, if you are relying on retaliation at all (I admit I do it too, but when I look over recount at the end of a run it does next to zero damage), use it BEFORE you pull. :P
A warrior tank's best friend is his tab key for aoe tanking. Learn to tab-tank well, and you will rarely have aoe issues.
A Pally has Consecrate, a DK has Death and Decay, and a Warrior has Tab. :)
OK... Been trying to break down the numbers a bit by reading Satrinas threat post one more time.
Demoralizing Shout does pretty much nothing to Threat (it is 63 base threat divided by the the number of enemies receiving it). Thats only a small fraction of what pretty much all damage dealing abilities will generate.
Retaliation or Saronite Bombs are not part of the testing Satrina did, but its threat would at least be equal to the Damage caused (whereas TC threat is 1.85 x damage caused for comparison).
I am behind a proxy atm so not able to test this myself. Whats the average damage casued by bombs / Retal (after compensating for AP)?
I wouldn't ever suggest swapping stances mid-fight to pop retaliation. Yes, demo does next to no threat. It's only useful when u need to tag a large group of mobs before someone dies to body aggro and you have nothing else available to hit them all.
Sorry if I am a bit slow here... but why not? With 5+ mobs rage is not a big issue so you can afford to dump some and still be able to spam Cleave. You are only in Battle Stance for the duration of one global cooldown. Total "cast time" is two GCD's. That sounds like a fair trade for 15-20 free melee swings distributed between the majority of your opponents.
Originally Posted by Dragaan
Saronite Bomb also sounds like a decent option to me. How many targets need to be hit by the bomb to make it a better option than say Concussion Blow (pure threat comparison, CB also creates threat equal to its damage)
this is honestly the first time im hearing of doing a stance dance to and fro for retalliation. So i dont have the numbers, but imo i just wouldnt do it for the main fact that you are switching defensive stance. It just seems a little to crazy to me for some reason. Do whatever works for you though, but if you are asking on this forum if that is good or not you must have some doubts about it....right?
I don't really ever find the need to pop into battle stance and use retaliation seems kind of like a waste of gcd. I have never done any tests on Saronite bomb but I am 90% sure that it doesn't do as much threat as Shockwave, Thunderclap or spamming cleave tabbing through the mobs.
I use retaliation a LOT. But I usually use it before a pull just for the hell of it. I use it multiple times per heroic, and I usually see less than 3k dmg total from retaliation over the course of these runs. How often do u think all of those charges actually get used? Very rarely, for me. I would rather continue spamming cleave and tabbing around.
First off, using Retaliation does not mean you can't HS/Cleave. It will also not be used unless TC is on CD, etc.
Now that we have been discussing this a bit I think Dragaan is doing it right. The main problem with Retaliation is that you don't have enough enemeies to actually 20 counterattacks. In a multiple mob environment one or two could be behind you, one could be a spellcaster etc. After some (limited) testing I average 8-15 counterattacks on a typical 4-6 mob pull.
I will start popping Retaliation prior to certain battles instead. Especially if I don't use Heroic Throw prior to charging. And I'll keep it on hand for events with huge trash pulls.
What about Saronite Bombs? Or Sapper Charges? You have yet to convince me to stop using bombs. I pop them mid-battle for additional threat when other abilities are on CD. I also use them when pulling to make sure all mobs start running at the same time. This increases the chance that TC will hit the fulll group of mobs.
If the bombs are working for you then go for it. I don't see a problem with it at all. That is what you want to do, so go for it, more power to you. I on the other hand, do not feel the need for them, and thus won't go out and get some made or buy them.
I don't think anyone really wants to get into the math of losing 1 maybe 2 GCDs on a pull to throw a bomb. It is really minimal either with gain or loss as long as you don't replace Shield Slam or Shockwave with it.
And as was pointed out earlier, for threat, demo shout is worthless. I only demo shout in heroics if I feel the incoming damage is too much, other than that, give me the rage baby.
Correct me if I'm wrong but, retaliate still only works on successful hits, so when you dodge/parry/(block?) it doesn't do anything.
I seem to recall that every time I use retal I'm left with quite a few unused charges.
There are a ton of warrior aoe vs other tank threads that discuss this...IMO glyph for cleave, vigilance, and sunder armor. Put vig on a warlock or mage. Start by charging main target, TC, Shockwave all adds. Then tab target SS, devastate, cleave. You will be the king of adds.
I think the reason no one is weighing threat values of bombs is that this is a Warrior AoE thread.
Bombs would be listed in an Engineer AoE threat thread.
Have em? Use em. I do, and it's another reason I have 0 problems with AoE threat as a warrior.
But for the purposes of this thread, ignore them.
IMO, in those 2 GCD's you're better off just using TC and whatever you want on the target with lowest threat. Keeping your rage means you can still cleave too.
Originally Posted by donthoto
I'm really skeptical that Retaliation *mid-pull* is worth it. Especially since it doesn't proc off dodge/parries (as per wowhead comments). Now if you were to do that pre-pull, then it's free threat as far as I'm concerned.
Edit: in TBC I always wished I was an engineer for bomb for AoE threat. At a guess, Saronite Bomb would probably out-threat CB whenever there's more than 2 mobs (assuming bomb damage is effected by your defensive stance multiplier).
Using a consumable as part of your threat rotation is probably what a lot of people would rather avoid. If you were to sell the mats rather than make or have someone make them into bombs, what would you approximate a run to be worth? 20 bombs? Xgold x 20?
To add to the thread, by using TC, shockwave, and tab-target threat I'm usually WAY above everyone in heroics. The only time something gets away is if I'm trying to do like 6 or 7+ mobs and some dumb mage is AoEing. That situation should just never happen. If it does I tell them to focus fire, cause I'm a warrior, not a bear, pally, DE (do DEs have good aoe threat? not sure).