AoE Threat Issues

Hello,
Last night was more or less my first attempt at tanking Uld 10 (Hodir down, Thorim's up next!) and I'm having some issues I was hoping to get some help with.

First off, this is my first Warrior, and I RAF'ed up to 60 by having our 80 friends do SM/ZF runs, then leveled as prot from there, but I still consider myself new to the class. I mention this because I have never known life without shockwave, or a need to stance dance, etc., despite having played a priest since vanilla. I have read the crap out of this site and tankingtips, and I currently subscribe to the "spec + glyph = shield wall ftw" method, especially because we're progressing into new content and I prefer to live through it.

So on to the questions:
1. I understand that 540 def is the minimum, but from there out, is there a kind of priority system that I should be following? I would assume that hit and exp cap (at least soft cap for exp) would be next, but it seems that all anyone cares about is my stamina. If I have 540, is a def gem a bigger boost to my suvivability than dodge, or stam?

2. How in the hell do warriors maintain aoe threat? I attempted to tank the arena part of Thorim, and the general outcome was this: 1) a guy jumps down, and I charge in, slam, devestate/revenge; 2) next guy in, I intercept, devestate/revenge; 3) 400 adds jump down and I tclap/demo shout/shockwave; 4) I begin queueing up cleaves while tabbing and slamming and revenging 5) the mage pulls agro.

I have a hard time blaming the mage for this, because if we don't drop these adds quickly enough, we start getting overrun. This means it has to be a tanking issue. So I'm wondering: should I use all available rage to cleave? OR should I be throwing in slams/revenges with the cleaves (potentially using all or most of my rage in the process)? How important is tclap for building threat on multiple mobs?

I was thinking that one option would be for the casters to have a macro to target the champion or evoker and burn him, while I maintain threat on the one target but continue to cleave and clap to build agro on the rest.

In short, I feel very limited compared to, say, consecrate. Halp?

-Pyow

PS,
As to my choice in gear, I think I have my EH set equipped at the moment, which means using a number of 213 items instead of some 219's (that have shield block) that I've been picking up. And I realize I need a belt socket and head enchant - they're coming soon.

The World of Warcraft Armory

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pyow

Hello,


So on to the questions:
1. I understand that 540 def is the minimum, but from there out, is there a kind of priority system that I should be following? I would assume that hit and exp cap (at least soft cap for exp) would be next, but it seems that all anyone cares about is my stamina. If I have 540, is a def gem a bigger boost to my suvivability than dodge, or stam?

2. How in the hell do warriors maintain aoe threat? I attempted to tank the arena part of Thorim, and the general outcome was this: 1) a guy jumps down, and I charge in, slam, devestate/revenge; 2) next guy in, I intercept, devestate/revenge; 3) 400 adds jump down and I tclap/demo shout/shockwave; 4) I begin queueing up cleaves while tabbing and slamming and revenging 5) the mage pulls agro.

I have a hard time blaming the mage for this, because if we don't drop these adds quickly enough, we start getting overrun. This means it has to be a tanking issue. So I'm wondering: should I use all available rage to cleave? OR should I be throwing in slams/revenges with the cleaves (potentially using all or most of my rage in the process)? How important is tclap for building threat on multiple mobs?

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1. First reach 540 defense. After that you gem for stamina, only matching socket bonuses if it really makes sense for that item, or to maintain def cap. You want to reach the point where you don't need a defense trinket, and can run double stam trinkets. Anything that isn't a stam trinket sucks. Hit and expertise just come along for the ride automatically on your gear, you don't need to gem or chant for that. Avoidance comes with gear, don't go for extra, you need stam more.

2. Warrior aoe threat sucks, and is much tricker than other tanks. Essentially (in order), thunderclap, shockwave, shield slam the scariest mob, revenge something else, thunderclap again, etc. Queue up cleave if you have the rage.

However an equally geared dpser will be able to pull off you. A superior geared will do it easily. You need to vigilance your best dpser, and the glyph helps. Dps has reponsibility for aggro too! Rogue Tricks and Hunter MD are helpful. Teach your rogues to tricks, then fan of knives, its so much threat.

As for thorim, what on earth is a mage doing in the arena. Use melee in the arena, send the mage down the hall. Make sure to taunt every champion, and get at least 2 high threat moves on him before you target change. Warbringers are next priority. Evokers aren't a huge problem, toss a conc blow their way if they start hitting a dpser. Commoners can be almost ignored simply by thunderclapping once, then shockwaving, they will die before causing trouble after those two moves. Don't waste gcd's on demo shout either, it does zero threat. Ideally your dps shoudl be focusing one target at a time, but don't count on it, dpsers rarely listen to that sort of request.

If you still have trouble on thorim have the other tank do the arena if they are another class. A paladin, dk or feral can faceroll through arena easily.

I agree with everything Regill says except you want to make sure you're putting vigilance on the person with the highest threat. That is not necessarily the person with the highest dps. Make sure you're periodically checking your Omen addon to see who's closest in threat. Don't be afraid to switch your vigilance target for different encounters.

Warriors can have great single target threat but it's very difficult to tank more than a few mobs at once. There are a lot of things warriors are very good at but you have to realize you can't be the best at everything, and aoe threat isn't one of them. Consider tanking the gaunlet instead of the arena on the Thorim encounter. Perhaps a DK or Pallie tank would be better suited for the arena.

Based on your armory profile and gear, what you want to do is create a few gear "sets" for different encounters. For example I have a threat set for fights like Malygos, Hodir, and Vezax. You stack expertise and hit for fights like this. Consider having an EH set for progression bosses where dps isn't riding you the whole time. Stacking stamina in these encounters enables you to take more damage before the heal lands on you.

The way I look at prioritizing stats is by first increasing my HP, but not at the expense of threat. Only by doing bosses more than once will you get a feel for whether you need to be focused on raw HP, threat, or some combination of both. Hope this helps.

A warrior is much better suited as a champion tank or a gauntlet tank, being primary arena tank can get kind of rough.

A mage that pulls aggro is a mage that should have Mirror Imaged :P

Also as a side note: If you're not sure how to be gearing/if you're gearing right, are you sure you're ready for Ulduar?

What twelveshots said; warriors/druids in gauntlet, paladin/DK in arena. When my guild started using that setup [we had a lot more druid/warrior tanks for a while, so it made sense] we got him down easily enough that we were wondering how we failed before.

I don't have much problems aoe tanking with my warrior. Maybe this helps [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSGu_Fykqr4"]YouTube - A Tank's Paradise[/ame] Just use Cleave instead of Heroic Strike, and Thunderclap/Shockwave whenever available. You don't have to rotate from one mob to the other, they'll stick to you. Cleave is my top overall tps- and dpsspell. This might be explained by my talent build: The World of Warcraft Armory.

Btw., if someone pulls a mob off you anyway, try this:
#showtooltip
/assist [target=mouseover]
/cast Intercept
/cast Charge
/cast Taunt
to attack their target by clicking their name on VuhDo (something like Grid or Healbot). You can see it here: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tivLL7yw4gU]YouTube - Skadi is ruthless, but Maloin is rootless[/ame]
I love to charge about. :D:D

I was paying more attention on aoe pulls last night in Ulduar and noticed something. A really geared rogue can get 4.5k crits per mob with fan of knives, and crits a lot, something like 50%. He can tricks of the trade 3 of those to you if he's fast. Which is a pretty much an enormous amount of threat, far more than a warrior can do alone. Thunderclap hits for 800 at best... even with the threat modifiers each fan is doing more threat.

Talk your rogues into doing this for you at the start of big aoe packs. It's also convenient if they write a simple macro that whispers their target when they cast tricks, so you know whats going on.

Of course the safest solution for aoe tanking is to let a DK, paladin or druid do it, and just peel mobs / debuff.

Edit: Glyphed vigilance on a feral druid for aoe packs, steal 15% of their kitty swipes :) Also very helpful, if you run a full time dps feral.