even tho people dont stack parry gear with parry on it has larger abouts of parry than dodge gear has dodge on it so it should even out
even tho people dont stack parry gear with parry on it has larger abouts of parry than dodge gear has dodge on it so it should even out
Provided itemization remains the same on gear. It is not handled differently on gems however, sadly, the same level gem will get you equal amounts dodge or parry.
Don't mistake, this is a net loss to all tank's avoidance, but those with more parry will lose slightly less.
For Flavius, I've never done much with the avoidance scripts, but I'd highly recommend TankPoints. It will give you a convenient calculator that will show your avoidance in each stat, after diminishing, and against a variable attacker level (defaulting to 83, or boss level).
So many DKs around here, where are all the druids raging? My druid needed better gear, specific gems (agi instead of sta), and inscription to overtake my warrior's total avoidance. Before the latest ac/hp nerfs it was alright since total mitigation was about equal. After 3.2 it will be even worse. I wonder if it will be better to stack def now as a druid instead of using agi exclusively, or fall back on sta stacking.
I suspect most of us are too excited about the new feral forms to care about the tanking nerfs, though.
So i found the old values in one of my previous posts.
Here go a few things to note first off
1∙ The original Values & math comes from EJ, i updated them myself to show what they will be in 3.2
2∙ The Base value of a Night Elf with the appropriate buffs is 103 agi
3a∙ K = druid constant
3b∙ D = the old linear system. Value before DR. 40.288 is how much agi per dodge
3d∙ 40.288 is how much agi per dodge (before DR) we will get come next patch with all buffs/talents
4∙ Base dodge of a naked NE in bear form with the right talents is ~17%
Here goes most of the math for those that understand. Eddited to add in Kings, SoTF + imp MoTW (and the new 15% increase)
1/c = 0.0085555
K = 0.9720
D = Dodge from agi (gear + buffs - Base) / 40.288
Druid A: 2941.024 agi (gear + buffs - Base)
Druid B: 2981.312 agi (gear + buffs - Base)
Druid A / 40.288 = 73
Druid B / 40.288 = 74
1/z = 1/c + K/D
Druid A :
1/z = 0.0085555 + 0.9720/73
1/z = 0.02187
z = 45.72% dodge with DR
Druid B :
1/z = 0.0085555 + 0.9720/74
1/z = 0.0276143
z = 46.10% dodge with DR
at this point(73-74% dodge shown on your char sheet from just agi) we can see that 40.288 agi only gives (46.10 - 45.72) 0.38% dodge instead of the original 1% that it would give us if we didnt have any other agi
just bear with me here youll see after the next part where this value fits in
Ok here we have a druid. This particular druid has a choice of taking 123 agi or 123 defense rating (same item value apparently) 4.9185 defense rating = 1 defense skill at lvl 80
- 123 defense rating = 25 defense skill = 1% dodge + 1% miss (at zero DR) = 2% avoidance
now this druid has SoTF, kings and Imp MoTW.
- 123 agi x 1.06 x 1.02 x 1.1 = 146.29 agi = 3.63% dodge (at zero DR) = 3.63% avoidance
but now Druid A from part one has a choice of taking 123agi or 123 defense rating
- 123 defense rating = 25 defense skill = 0.38% dodge + 1% miss = 1.38% avoidance
- 123 agi x 1.06 x 1.02 x 1.1 = 146.29 agi = 1.38% dodge = 1.38% avoidance
with this we can see the point where Defense > agi provided you currently have no defense on your gear.
In conclusion, unless you have over 91% dodge according to your character sheet (74% from agi + ~17% base) you dont need to worry about defense and since that's unobtainable you can totally forget about it until T12 or any such time you get close to 3k agi http://www.mmo-champion.com/Smileys/classic/tongue.gif.
∙ Little note from me, i was a little surprised it was actually this high, seems like its jumped about 25% since i last calculated it but then again that was right at the start of WoTLK without talents or buffs
Most of that doesn't make sense to me, but I'm not one for all the math. I am guessing it shows that it'll never be worth stacking defense for avoidance as a druid. Which is good since it's hard to stack as a druid. I guess that just means my dps set is going to suffer since I will have to gem for sta on those shared pieces again.
Thanks for that though
I created an Avoidance Calculator a while back, based on Satrina's model. And I just updated it with the new values for Agility, Dodge, and Parry.
With these stats (which were my stats when I created the model)...
Agility from Gear: 44
Defense Rating from Gear: 717
Dodge Rating from Gear: 512
Parry Rating from Gear: 176
+10 Agility = +0.08444% Avoidance
+10 Defense = +0.15992% Avoidance
+10 Dodge = +0.15763% Avoidance
+10 Parry = +0.15562% Avoidance
Parry still has faster diminishing returns, so it's still probably not a great idea to stack it or gem for it. At higher Parry levels, you'll notice a bigger difference.
But for all intents and purposes, I think you can basically say that Defense Rating, Dodge Rating, and Parry Rating are now pretty much equal point for point as far as how much avoidance they give you. Or at least close enough that you're not going to be able to detect the difference, unless you gear strictly for one over the others (like wearing all Parry gear).
So I keep seeing people saying 1.88:1 Dodge:Parry ratio is optimized - this only applies to paladins from what I can tell (since I only see paladin numbers being posted for these and actually working).
This can't possibly apply to DK's - right now I am at 690 Defense Rating (540 Skill), 534 Dodge Rating (26.14% unbuffed by Horn), and 421 Parry Rating (20.71% unbuffed by Horn, but I have Swordshatter on my current avoidance weapon).
Using Theck's calculations of Def-689, Dodge-96, and Parry-64, my ratio comes out to 1.22:0.003:1 for Dodge : Defense : Parry - but this is clearly thrown off by Forceful Deflection.
Naked, with zero gear on, in my blood tanking spec, I have the following stats.
Dodge = 9.95% (5% from Anticipation Talent)
Parry = 6.08% (Tooltip says 48 Rating adds 1.06% Parry, which must be from Forceful Deflection)
I'm also talented into Veteran of the Third War, which is giving me +4 Strength (from the percent increase).
So using these baseline Dodge and Parry percentages, subtracted from my unbuffed, geared percentages, gives me the following numbers:
Dodge % gained from gear = 16.19%
Parry % gained from gear = 14.63%
Dodge%:Parry% ratio = 1.11:1
So my dodge is slightly better than my parry, because my parry is so high from Forceful Deflection. In order to "normalize" my Dodge ratio, I would have to increase my Dodge % gained from gear by 10.144% - meaning I would have to gain an astronomical amount of Dodge rating, or lower my Parry. But I can't really lower my parry, as it (1) is part of my fundamental class makeup because of Forceful Deflection, and (2) much of the best in slot pieces, most notably Tier pieces, have large amounts of Parry rating on them.
I would love to see Xenix work up some numbers on DK's, since the numbers that apply for Paladins and Warriors clearly do not apply to us. There are some major things to take into account too, with respect to your calculations for Avoidance gained thru Defense. With our Runeforging, we have two that are unaffected by DR - Stoneskin Gargoyle (25 unmitigated Defense skill) and Swordshattering (4% unmitigated Parry percent). This makes things very interesting. For example:
I have two weapons for tanking. Marrowstrike, my "avoidance" weapon, 110 Agility with Socket Bonus, and a 16 Defense Rating gem in socket, with the Swordshattering runeforge. With this equipped, my Dodge % is 26.14%, Parry % is 20.71%, and chance to be missed is 5.60%. Edge of Ruin, my "defense" weapon, which has 121 Strength (giving 0.42% Parry) and it has the Stoneskin Gargoyle runeforge. With this equipped, my Dodge % is exactly the same, 26.14%, Parry % is 18.06%, and chance to be missed is 6.48%.
So total avoidance with Marrowstrike = 26.14% + 20.71% + 5.6% = 52.45%
Total avoidance with Edge of Ruin = 26.14% + 18.06% + 6.48% = 50.68%
Difference in avoidance = 1.77%
Now, what confuses me is, you say there are optimal breakpoints for Defense Rating, where nearly no Defense Rating points are wasted. Bringing Stoneskin Gargoyle into the picture with flat skill, not rating, changes things, right?
o.O Dodge and Parry work the same for the Warrior, Pally, and DK.
The reason DK's can never get as much avoidance/threat value from Parry as Dodge, is because the Strength on gear scales fast enough to keep us loaded on Parry rating. This parry rating pushes us so far along the curve that we can't really get past the point where Dodge rating will become the smaller value.
Still, no sense in avoiding gear with parry rating on it (especially since it still has a higher point return for it's itemization). Forgive the unintentional but unavoidable pun. Oh damn, did it again...
Yes, I know that Dodge and Parry ratings work the same for Warrior, Paladin, and Deathknight, strictly in the mathematical sense. However, if you gave Warrior, Paladin, and Deathknight all identically statted gear, Deathknights would come out astronomically on top with respect to Parry rating, because of Forceful Deflection. It's something inherent to the class, something you can't change or gear differently for. So it fundamentally changes what we have to look at as far as avoidance ratios, because our baseline parry is much higher.
So my question is, in order to balance between Defense, Dodge, and Parry, which carries the most weight when you take Forceful Deflection gains into account, and how that effects Defense and Dodge.
The 1.875:1 dodge to parry ratio is still true for maximizing avoidance, even for DK's. The problem is you won't every reach it because of forceful deflection, so you are stuck stacking dodge to maximize avoidance. There are no fundamental changes in your ratio unfortunately.
To take the stats you posted, if you do indeed have 14.63% parry from gear and forceful deflection, then until you have 14.63*1.875 = 27.43% dodge from gear, continue to stack dodge. The 1.875:1 ratio has nothing to do with being a paladin and everything to do with having a Cd = 88.12021 and a Cp= 47.003525, which DK's do.
It would be ideal if your dodge levels were high enough, but in a practical sense, I don't think they will. It is a true avoidance optimization ratio for the DK, but only in theory or until gear changes to give you more dodge or if they take more of your parry off of DR. In the current state of DK's you will most likely not hit the optimization ratio, so definitely stack dodge as you suggest.
The thing is, for a DK, just stacking dodge is doing exactly what we are describing. The rule says, that if you are under the 1.875 mark, then you stack dodge until you reach it. From a technical sense, that is what DK's must do, they just will probably not reach that happy spot, so they will continue to stack dodge.
The TLDR section is basically we agree on the outcome of the two view points (stack dodge as a DK), but have different understandings of how we arrive at that point (you think there is no ratio, and I think there is, but know you won't hit it...probably more semantics than anything).
If you are curious about where the 1.875 ratio comes from, it actually ends up being derived from Cd/Cp. There's some basic calculas used to get there using the DR equations, but the end result works out that the crossover point is at d = (Cd/Cp)*p, and Cd/Cp = 1.875 approximately.
What confuses me to some degree, is how defense effects the others. Defense adds to dodge, parry, block (which has no effect for DK's), as well as an equal chance to miss. But the percentage that it adds to parry and dodge is effected by diminishing returns, so just stacking Defense has limited effect based on your dodge and parry ratings, respectively. The higher your dodge rating, the less of an effect Defense's added dodge % has? Is that right?
And that takes me back to our previous topic - the way I see it, if a DK discounts the added parry from Forceful Deflection, and bases his theoretical ratio on just base parry + parry rating from gear, and then check their dodge : parry ratio based on that (since technically, Forceful Deflection is a class skill, and shouldn't be entered into your base calculations). That would put me at 172 Parry rating based on gear, and when plugged into Theck's rating ratio calculations, it would place me at 438:1:108, putting my dodge : defense : parry ratio at 4.06:0.009:1. Any parry gained from Forceful Deflection is just an added bonus, and from the look of it, raising my Defense would serve me better than any other changes at this point?
Does that add up right? Or does the parry rating I gain from Forceful Deflection effect how useful stacking more Defense would be?
All that equation does is define the line that, if you ride it, maximizes the total amount of avoidance after DR is considered. If your ratio is higher, you are wasting avoidance in dodge. If your ratio is lower, you are wasting avoidance on parry. If you are right on that line, you have the most possible avoidance per rating point, thus maximizing your total avoidance.
The dodge/def/parry ratio you are trying to use is old. Even Theck I believe came to the conclusion that you just get defense to a particular level and then use a dodge/parry ratio. Trying to do it like you are will give you non-optimal results. What will happen when you use the 4.06:0.009:1 is nothing. It will not buy you any better optimization than the 1.875 ratio and will often be worse. The fact is, if your DR'd dodge is not around 1.875 times your DR'd parry, then you are not optimum. Splitting up the parry won't work because the equation is not linear, and the part you are trying to throw out is affected by DR.
Another way to put why you can't simply take forceful deflection out is this. The 1.875 ratio comes from taking the slopes of the two DR curves (the dodge curve and the parry curve) and finding a relationship such that the slopes of those two curves are equal. When the slopes of the two curves are equal, parry gives just as much avoidance as dodge does per rating point. The equation for the slope of the parry DR curve is this:
here, p is the total amount of parry affected by DR. If you try to separate it into parts: p = p1 + p2, where p1 is the parry from forceful deflection and p2 is the remaining, the equation looks like this:Code:
slope = --------------
(p + Cp*k)^2
I don't know how much algebra you are familiar with, but there is no way to split that equation into two separate parts, one with only forceful deflection and one with the remaining. It isn't possible, because at least one chunk of the chunks you split it into would be a function of both p1 and p2. So one will always depend on the existence of the other.Code:
slope = ----------------
(p1 + p2 + Cp*k)^2
Ok, that makes a lot more sense now, knowing that there is a hard cap that as you approach, you gain less per point. I wasn't aware of that, and hadn't seen that stated anywhere before.
So when you say optimized, you are saying optimum ratios with respect to those caps. Does having more dodge or parry have a direct effect on the other stat (more dodge makes parry less effective, and vice versa) is my real question? Being out of ratio just means that you're getting less bang for your buck, so to speak, for each type of avoidance. This only really matters if you have lots of gear options to switch back and forth in order to not lose effective health/defense rating cap, and make changes in your dodge/parry ratios. If you have items that are best in slot with respect to effective health, and they are considerably higher in that stat than any other piece you might have, you obviously aren't going to downgrade to a piece that has more dodge or more parry just to get your dodge or parry ratio correct. It would be nice to do that, but ultimately you look at other stats (like stamina and keeping defense cap) first, before worrying about getting the optimum dodge/parry ratio.
Correct. It isn't always practical to try to stack either cause you might only have the gear that drops and nothing to play with. The ratio is more of a guideline incase you do have a choice or two (think gems, which have equal amounts of dodge and parry).
I will pull this one line out to answer:
The idea behind the ratio is just to let you know which one of the two stats is giving better returns at a given point. If your ratio is above 1.875, then parry is giving better avoidance returns per point. If your ratio is below 1.875, then dodge is giving better avoidance returns per point. If the ratio is exactly 1.875, then both are giving the exact same returns per point.
DK's start very far below the 1.875 mark due to forceful deflection, so for them dodge simply gives more avoidance per point for a very long time (maybe forever given gear levels, but I don't know that for sure). Until they have so much dodge that dodge cannot compete with parry anymore, dodge will be better, but that line is set pretty high (1.875*your parry).
As you stated however, if a piece drops and is an upgrade but has parry, then take it. Getting more parry isn't wrong as long as it is an upgrade. Now if you switched all your dodge gems to parry gems when you were well below the 1.875 ratio, then you would be throwing away avoidance, because being below the 1.875 mark means that dodge is more efficient in returns per point.
Here's another question - how does Defense skill come into play? Defense adds X% to Dodge, Parry, Block, and Miss - but it is all subject to diminishing returns, right? What I'm curious about is how the diminishing returns are calculated. Is the Dodge, Parry, and Block from Defense added to the "undiminished" percentage that is calculated from rating, and then the entire percentage is reduced based on the hard cap? Are the diminished returns for Defense, and each effected avoidance stat calculated separately, and then the final number we see on the tooltip is the sum of the parts?
Such is life, and we'll gear accordingly. Personally, I don't stack dodge or parry rating. =) Agility fuh tuh wuh! Armor, Dodge, and Crit! (ohmnomnomnom)