parry and dodge change question

so I'm looking at the updated patch notes and i see this:

• Agility: The amount of agility required per percentage of dodge has been increased by 15%. This change required recalibrating the amount of dodge a player has with 0 agility by a slight amount as well, so all players will see their dodge percentage vary a small amount.
• Dodge Rating: The amount of dodge rating required per percentage of dodge has been increased by 15%. This is before diminishing returns. Combined with other changes, this makes dodge rating and parry rating equally potent before diminishing returns apply.
• Parry Rating: The amount of parry rating required per percentage of parry has been reduced by 8%. This is before diminishing returns. Combined with other changes, this makes dodge rating and parry rating equally potent before diminishing returns apply. Parry still diminishes more quickly than dodge.

so what exactly does this all mean?

This means that the following values from Diminishing Returns - Avoidance

Code:

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39.34799 dodge rating = 1% dodge chance
49.18499 parry rating = 1% parry chance
-----------------
Class          Dodge/Agility
Warrior        0.013600
Paladin        0.019200
Deathknight    0.013600
Druid          0.024000

---

become:

Code:

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45.25 dodge rating = 1% dodge chance
45.25 parry rating = 1% parry chance
-----------------
Class          Dodge/Agility
Warrior        0.011826
Paladin        0.016696
Deathknight    0.011826
Druid          0.020870

---

The overall diminishing returns formula stays the same, as well as the caps and other coefficients.

In short, your dodge% will go down slightly, your parry% will go up slightly and you should have a small net loss in avoidance unless you have been stacking tons of parry.

Well as i see it, and I could be wrong, the agility change is targeted at druids. From that change they are going to lose roughly 15% of the dodge they gain through agility. I have 135agi=1.32%(according to wowwikiw 102 agi per %). Napkin math says its will be 1.15%

The dodge rating change does the same thing for plate wearers. Causes at 15% lost in dodge gained from dodge rating. I have 429 DR=10.9%. Napkin math shows me that will become 9.48%

The parry change means you should gain 8% more parry from the rating that you already have. But since most people tend to not stack parry, I can't imagine this will compensate. I have 112 PR=2.28% after change 2.47%

1.32-1.15=0.17 loss
10.9-9.48=1.42 loss
2.47-2.28=0.19 gain
Net loss of 1.4% avoidance. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

A good change imo. Makes pieces with dodge and parry look pretty comparable now for all tank classes except druids. Noone stacks parry unless they are stupid, but it makes the gear that already has it look a little better.

I had always thought parry and dodge should have the same value, they are basically balanced with parry having a harsher DR and parry having a small threat component.

Does this make defense the favorable avoidance stat for Warriors/Paladins?

Before DR, 4.92 Defense rating = 1 Defense Skill = 0.04% Dodge parry miss. To get 1% avoidance from defense before DR you need (1/(0.04*3)*4.92=)41 Defense rating.

So, defense > dodge > parry, for avoidance now? Mind you, the chance to be missed suffers from DR a lot, but the benefit from block should somewhat counter that. The DR on dodge/parry is the same as it would be for dodge and parry rating respectively.

I wonder if:
(a) the dodge and parry you gain from Defence will also change by the same proportions that pure dodge/parry are changing, or
(b) you will still gain a flat 0.04% parry/dodge/miss/block from Defence skill.

I logged onto the PTR just now, took some screenshots (examples is below), with and without the Seal of Pantheon equipped. Results tabulated here:

Code:

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                  Sample 1        Sample 2        Rating -> avoidance before DR
Defence skill        559                546       
Def rating        796                  718
Dodge                24.15%                23.76%                361 -> 7.98%
Parry                18.92%                18.63%                528 -> 11.67%

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http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...809_100215.jpg http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...100213-def.jpg http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o..._100151def.jpg http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...809_100200.jpg

I haven't drawn conclusions yet, just sharing the data.

Findings:
(1) Xenix is right, that 45.25 dodge rating now = 1% dodge chance

Questions:
(1) wtf is with the tooltips, they report a 78 def rating loss when I removed the 65 def rating trinket?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warloco

Does this make defense the favorable avoidance stat for Warriors/Paladins?

Before DR, 4.92 Defense rating = 1 Defense Skill = 0.04% Dodge parry miss. To get 1% avoidance from defense before DR you need (1/(0.04*3)*4.92=)41 Defense rating.

So, defense > dodge > parry, for avoidance now? Mind you, the chance to be missed suffers from DR a lot, but the benefit from block should somewhat counter that. The DR on dodge/parry is the same as it would be for dodge and parry rating respectively.

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Speaking as a paladin, no - dodge should still give the most avoidance per point (and the block from defense is unnecessary past being unhittable) unless one of two things is true:

1) You have stacked much more dodge rating than parry rating. This exception was always the case, but the amount of dodge you need to stack before parry gives you more avoidance has gone down.

2) Due to the stepwise nature of defense, a gem or half-gem worth of defense rating just bumps you to the next defense skill -and- your avoidance ratings are such that the post-DR avoidance is similar between dodge and parry (more likely post-3.2).

As an example, using my own stats plus an extra gem worth of avoidance rating:

Code:

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      Defense Rating      Dodge Rating      Parry Rating    Bonus Agility    Avoidance
3.1  705                  435              317              22              54.3083
      +16                  +0                +0              +0              +.2302
      +0                  +16              +0              +0              +.2922
      +0                  +0                +16              +0              +.2095
3.2  705                  435              317              22              53.5716
      +16                  +0                +0              +0              +.2313
      +0                  +16              +0              +0              +.2619
      +0                  +0                +16              +0              +.2233

---

Notice that although post-3.2 the value of defense rating and parry rating increases for me slightly, and the value of dodge rating decreases slightly, but a gem of dodge rating still gives me the most avoidance of the three.

As an example of my exceptions above, though:

1) If I were to bump up the dodge rating by 400 to 835, an extra gem of parry would provide slightly more benefit than dodge and defense post-3.2. (0.2233 vs. 0.2211 for dodge and 0.2174 for defense).

2) If I were to instead look at increasing the numbers by 14 points instead of 16, defense rating provides the most benefit post-3.2. (0.2313 vs. 0.2292 for dodge post 3.2) although pre-3.2, the dodge gem would be better (0.2302 vs. 0.2552 for dodge pre-3.2).

Disclaimer: This all depends on your current gear situation. If you're willing to swap out your gems to get the best possible avoidance in any gear situation, you'll need to run the numbers yourself to see what is best for you.

I'd be surprised if that changed, Grav. I mean, technically as they diminish differently the return on Defense rating will change with regards to each stat, but it shouldn't change before, there's no good reason to.

This equalizing may shift some previously accepted theories and values into a place where more options may be feasible.



And Palthazora, try not to be so pejorative. There is a time and a place to add parry rating to your gear, and doing so when it's the only thing available is not "stupid."

Anyone got suggestions why the tooltip shows a greater change from removing the Pantheon trinket than it should? Known bug? Something silly I'm doing?

The change to parry rating is a stealth buff for DKs, and the first one that seems worthwhile. Given the notable amount of parry rating we carrying innately from Forceful Deflection, we've suffered from the diminish returns the most on parry. I suspect DKs may actually gain avoidance with this change as a result.

Mmmm, haven't run the numbers myself, but a quick off the top of my head run of the numbers:

My DK has 572 dodge rating and 471 parry rating.
Before diminishing as it is live, that's: 14.54% dodge and 9.58% parry
Again, before diminishing with the new system: 12.64% dodge and 10.41% parry

Totals that shifts from 24.12% to 23.05%. Add in diminishing effects and the portion from parry will shrink every so slightly more than dodge, so the difference will be slightly larger, though the total change will be slightly smaller.

This is almost certainly a testing change that Blizz is trying out because they feel like avoidance is becoming a little TOO high, which means to compensate they have to either make damage much higher and risk spike-killing of tanks, dial back avoidance a bit, or change the way the system works. The last, suffice to say, is not a "let's patch it in and see what happens" kind of thing.

I think this is a nice step in the direction of not having a distinctly under-valued tanking stat in parry. I wonder a bit if this is long coming after Blizz trolling here on TankSpot (and many other forums) detailed breakdowns where Parry can never quite stand up to Dodge's value as a survival or threat stat, even for DKs who can make the most use of it. This won't quite cover the distance, but it surely closes the gap by a lot.

@ Xenix: I checked your gear and used it as a reference, here's the basic stats:
705 Defense rating, 435 Dodge Rating, 317 Parry rating, 104 Block rating, 46 Agility (Base agility doesn't matter).

Raid buffs:
178 Agi from talented Strength of Earth totem, 52 agi from talented MotW, 10% agility from BoK.

As far as I know those are the only raid buffs that effect your avoidance, so lets take those numbers as our basis.

Giving us: 705 def, 435 dodge, 317 parry, 104 block, 304 agi

* curdef = defense rating, curdod = dodge rating, curagi = agility

Dodge % = (1/((0.956/((floor(curdef/4.9185)*0.04)+(curdod/45.25018)+(curagi*0.0136)))+0.011347))
Parry % = (1/((0.956/((floor(curdef/4.9185)*0.04)+(curpar/45.25019)))+0.021275))
Miss % = 1/((0.956/(floor(curdef/4.9185)*0.04))+(1/16))

Now to get a better idea of the value of defense, you should run the numbers without rounding defense skill to whole numbers- that was You don't run the risk of ending up 1 def rating short of a defense skill. This changes the formula's to:

Dodge % = (1/((0.956/((705/4.9185*0.04)+(435/45.25018)+(304*0.0136)))+0.011347)) = 16.5507%
Parry % = (1/((0.956/((705/4.9185*0.04)+(317/45.25019)))+0.021275)) = 10.3820%
Miss % = 1/((0.956/(705/4.9185*0.04))+(1/16)) = 4.3622%

Note that this is avoidance from gear, it disregards base avoidance, avoidance from talents/avoidance not subject to DR. Also note that this isn't rounding defense as the game does.

Now lets add 16 def, dodge, parry, and agi.

+16 Defense
Dodge % = (1/((0.956/((721/4.9185*0.04)+(435/45.25018)+(304*0.0136)))+0.011347)) = 16.6404
Parry % = (1/((0.956/((721/4.9185*0.04)+(317/45.25019)))+0.021275)) = 10.4645%
Miss % = 1/((0.956/(721/4.9185*0.04))+(1/16)) = 4.4338%
Avoidance gain = 0.2438%

+16 dodge
Dodge % = (1/((0.956/((705/4.9185*0.04)+(451/45.25018)+(304*0.0136)))+0.011347)) = 16.7939%
Avoidance gain = 0.2432%

+16 parry
Parry % = (1/((0.956/((705/4.9185*0.04)+(333/45.25019)))+0.021275)) = 10.6052%
Avoidance gain = 0.2232%

+16 Agility
Dodge % = (1/((0.956/((705/4.9185*0.04)+(435/45.25018)+(320*0.0136)))+0.011347)) = 16.7006%
Avoidance gain = 0.1499%

** bolded numbers are our own input, def rating/dodge rating/parry rating/agility.

As you can see, the numbers we're getting are near identical for dodge/parry, the difference in dodge could be due to you saying you have 22 bonus agility, when you have both an agility enchant and 3 half agility gems, making for a total of 46 agility. The difference in defense is more notable, in favor of defense. The reason for this (I assume) is because you round to full defense points, this will create a certain bias, this bias can be in favor of defense just aswell as it can be in favor of dodge, it just depends on your current exact defense number.

You can't just say that a defense gem will give you equal steps of defense skill, you could say this is 4 def rating = 1 defense skill- however that number isn't 4, it's 4.9185.

This is all assuming no unannounced change in the caps and/or constants in the DR formula.

As a warrior, I like this change. Might even make it worth using some 8Parry/12Stam gems in red sockets to get the bonus, since the avoidance gained may come out equal plus we get a tiny haste buff for threat.

But it would be an unfair nerf to druids, and they should compensate them in some other way to keep their avoidance equal, since they get nothing out of the Parry buff. Maybe give druids a +15% return on Dodge and Agility to keep things equal for them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kerg

As a warrior, I like this change. Might even make it worth using some 8Parry/12Stam gems in red sockets to get the bonus, since the avoidance gained may come out equal plus we get a tiny haste buff for threat.

But it would be an unfair nerf to druids, and they should compensate them in some other way to keep their avoidance equal, since they get nothing out of the Parry buff. Maybe give druids a +15% return on Dodge and Agility to keep things equal for them.

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Druids are currently slightly more powerful than the rest, this will probably reduce their avoidance by about 3%- which if anything will probably put them more in line with the rest.

hmmm. I might be missing something, but if dodge and parry both increase at the same rate now, Doesn't this change now make parry rating exclusively better than dodge rating due to parry-hasting? If Dodge offers no benefit other than avoidance, why would i ever choose dodge rating over parry rating where the option is available?

Parry presumably still has a much steeper DR dropoff than dodge.

Now I have to rethink Valor Medal of the First War vs Rune of Repulsion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Satrina

This is all assuming no unannounced change in the caps and/or constants in the DR formula.

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I'm hoping for something else, but the current patch notes do state "This is before diminishing returns. Combined with other changes, this makes dodge rating and parry rating equally potent before diminishing returns apply. Parry still diminishes more quickly than dodge.". Note: I'm hoping for something else not because I'm whining, I just have a thing for parry, and I wish it was more balanced :P

It seems clear that they want to balance rating coefficients, not DRs. Granted, they could be changing the DR formula to lessen the difference between both stats, but there's no indication of intentions to review the DR mechanisms.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Superspy23

Now I have to rethink Valor Medal of the First War vs Rune of Repulsion.

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Not counting the on-use effects, with the new 45.25019 coefficient, the medal would give 1.85% dodge, and the rune would give 2.1% parry before diminishing returns. If the DR formulal doesn't change, I'd be getting around 30% more avoidance per point of dodge rating. Most people would likely still get better avoidance from the medal :( but at least the gap is narrowed.