Dear Chronic Apocalyptic Heralds (aka QQ'ers),
Please see my new thread found here: Survival Breakdown and Evolution
This thread will be comparing the relative survival breakdowns of the 4 tanking classes through the framework of 4 very well-geared endgame tanks. These breakdowns will be evolving to compare relative survivability. Note that none of the classes are vastly inferior or superior, and also please note that the differences between tank survival is in the order of 90% damage reduction for every tank.
None of the classes are broken. They each have some nuances of their own. Mechanics that worked better than was planned, or work worse. Or mechanics that are being criticized in arenas they were not meant to be a significant factor in (i.e. block against hard hitting raid bosses).
Thank you for your constructive contributions,
PS the world is not coming to an end, the <yourclasshere> is not going to be annexed out of tanking, and in fact we're all going to be just fine. Until the bunny rebellion...
I play a DK Tank now, used to play a Warrior Tank pre 3.1 hope that gives some perspective.
IBF was overpowered to begin with so it being brought to 2 min simply means it's being brought more in line w/ the other Tank cds. Crap, my Warrior still is stuck glyph + 2 talent points to just get to 2 min. Personally I think 2 min cd's on the big "Oh shit" ability should be universal, there's no reason Warriors need to pay a ridiculous cost just to bring themselves in line w/ all 3 other tanks base standards.
5% armor nerf simply brings DK's armor in line w/ the other 2 shield wearing classes. Though you could argue the miniscule dmg reduction Block offers actually covered that differential. I'm not kidding even a 30k hit 1.5k BV is a 5% dmg reduction, while it's less consistent it still is a percentage worth noting if you're looking at armor reduction + Block vs just armor reduction.
The 10% hp to 6% stam change is noticeable. It actually brings us to about the level of Warrior hp. The problem is that Warriors had the lowest hp out of the 4 to begin with. Personally, it seems like it's a little extreme to reduce our health that much and Warriors actually needed a hp buff considering they had the lowest EH and also Blocked less consistently making their damage intake more spikey than the other 4.
So in short IBF was a long time coming, I'm surprised it took THAT long for them to change it. However, the combined 5% armor and 6% stam change seems one appropriate for the most part. Pre 3.2 we pretty much had it all. Awesome EH and great avoidance, now we're pushed slightly further to having slightly better Avoidance at the expense of a minor reduction in EH. From the looks of it thinks are relatively in line, though as we've seen EH seems to be favored for progression fights. Then again it's just one factor.
I think IBF did not need to be brought down because it was better than its analogues from the other tanks, but it did need to be brought down so long as DKs had higher passive survivability than the other 4. That said, now that DK's are on the same level there as well, the CD is probably marginally appropriate but less necessary.
Nothing to do now but ride the wave, patch is live!
My problem with IBF was that was given boss ability cds and the seeming abundance of bosses in Ulduar that benefitted from timing survival cds . . . As we've seen on Vezax, XT, Hodir and to a lesser extent others, IBF lines up incredibly well with those high dmg moments. While other tanks can do the same w/ assistance from healers, I personally found it a bit excessive that a specific class could remove the need for cooldown support from others like DK's could.
Don't get me wrong it's nice for the whole raid and as a DK tank it's fun to solo some of that stuff. But at the same time it's fustrating to be a different class but also a Tank and know you need that support crew to do the same job.
My point is simply that the CDs are only one part of the equation. They've fixed the way it used to be where DK's were FAR more squishy outside of CDs and had better CDs to compensate, and they narrowed the gap. Now DK's will be as squishy or slightly more so, so having a slightly better CD is a form of balance.
IBF was good step better though, sharing Barkskin's CD and glyphed Shield Wall's magnitude.
I agree with Schwegburt; don't get me wrong, Sartorri is correct that with the new changes to DK survival the issue with CDs being OP wasn't nearly as large...except that as Schweg notes far too many bosses have burst damage timed to coincide with DK CD durations (pre 3.2).
Now you can call this a failure of encounter design (in fact I do call it that...how could they designers repeatedly design burst damage frequency to where raid healing/CD support could be trivialized by one tanks CDs but not others?. But at this juncture it's lots easier to just change the duration on DK CDs rather than retune those boss encounters.
In this sense I could even see the CD timing partially revert back as time goes on and current raids become farm/obsolete. A 1:30 or 1:45 CD would still be stronger (and hence bring some of the individual flavor back) without breaking boss encounters with 1 minute burst damage.
Edit: Sartorri, on trash, in a five-man, or on a boss without ill-timed burst damage I agree that CDs are only one part of the equation. But on Vezax and Hodir, for example, they are pretty much the only issue. This isn't like "one tank just does a bit better because of the mechanics" it's "one tank makes it a tank and spank while the others must bring external raid CDs and/or kite, either way making the fight significantly more difficult".
That said, I have no issue with IBF being a bit more powerful in some other way, or like I said above with a somewhat shorter CD but not so much that it alters the dynamics of boss encounters fundamentally.
Ive been DK tanking for a while now and I have to admit I did think for a while that I had been nerfed into oblivion, I took way too much damage, had no "oh $*#@" buttons and felt very helpless when it came to watching out for myself.
I have always preferred blood for its healing and threat properties, but when it didnt cut it anymore after 3.2 I tried frost and unholy, neither did the trick for me.
I dont even want to think about how many times I respec'd to find a viable tanking spec again, but I think I found it, as I just had a "typed" ovation after tanking Ulduar 25 in a pug tonight. Feel free to critique this build, but I will swear by it for raid tanking. Pretty much I just focused on as much mitigation as possible coupled with self healing and good threat, which blood is so good at. I also pull 3k dps on mobs of 4 or more which is always a plus, about 2400 on a single target. And its really nice to have some panic buttons again.
Heres the build and note that my gear score is 2350 atm
The World of Warcraft Armory
I see that you're totally against the word "nerf" or other DK's that are actually concerned about losing their spot. The theorycrafting thread you made (which seems to be unfinished) is going to use what as results ? I sincerely hope you're not going to make the same mistake as numerous people have my by simply checking the average damage intake over time and using that as some sort of standard.
Originally Posted by Satorri
when it comes to incoming damage in a fight, the death knight is surely on par with the other classes and seems to be fine. However, due to the now lower health, armor and no block mechanism compared to druids the only reason for this is because of their higher avoidance. The entire problem with death knights in 3.2 is that they tend to get gibbed as soon as their avoidance fails them. Algalon is a good example for this as it's simply EH that keeps you alive there and avoidance is totally worthless if you can't live through an unlucky streak. The limit for a dk in those circumstances is simply much lower in 3.2, which makes them the "worst" tank to keep alive.
Dk's are still squishy without cooldowns compared to other tanks. There's no need to overdo maths that have already been done for that.
From a healers point of view i can only agree on that the DK tanks now a days is the hardest tank class to heal, our MT is a DK and our MT healer has never had any problems healing him, until now. Our Dk tank now takes shitloads of spikedamage and its a pain keeping him alive, sure, perhaps they are more balanced towards other tanking classes but why is it then that the other tanking classes are much easier to heal?
Originally Posted by influxreptile
As an example, lets take a simple instance as ToC hc, normaly as a healer u dont have to heal for that much in a hc no matter what tanking class are used, basically you heal for aroun 2k hps in totally (sometimes even less), Now when a DK tank is tanking you have to heal much more and your total hps in the same instance lands around 3-4k hps
Some of you probably already explained this, and i much likely missed it, so please explain it in simple words to a non dk player what has happened to dks tanking?
Changes (for the better) are to come to DK tanks when 3.2.2 lands. Survival cool downs are brought back to 1 minute, and improved mitigation overall. Let's wait and see what happens when it's out.
They got balanced. ^_^
Originally Posted by Mathandire
Obviously it shot over the mark - the pendulum always swings, it never lingers - but that's why there's small buffs in 3.2.2 again.
this thread needs to die. 3.2.2 just went live with survival buffs today and this thread is at the top of the T&M section with the words "Huge Nerf" displayed prominently in it's title. it's a little counter-productive.
Anub'arak didn't get that memo.
Originally Posted by Haarg
... Why did we necro this thread after a month?
Originally Posted by Splug
I wish I didn't have to switch to my paladin in Ilvl 226 gear for heroic anub.
Originally Posted by Splug
Why didn't it stay dead?