Holding Aggro on Ignis
I'm a rogue who is having very significant aggro problems in the Ignis fight. I'm allowing my tank some lead up time after Ignis is MD'd to him - i'm using Tricks to transfer aggro to him whenever it is up - I have Vigilence on me - I am using Feint to reduce my aggro whenever it is up in time with Ignis's AoE - I am vanishing out to wipe all aggro when I start to go over the top. In short I am doing all I can to reduce my aggro but I am STILL having to hold back on damage quite significantly (even to the point of just auto attacking and sitting there on full energy).
For the guild I am in (which is not Uber at all and only has 5 bosses down in 10 man Ulduar - and yeah all of Naxx25 cleared) my DPS is high (often 2k above the next closest doing around 5-6k in 10 mans more in 25s). My guild and MT are telling me my damage is just too high for them to be able to hold aggro in this fight in particular because (for some reason) the MT can't do all he normally does to hold aggro. Note that I don't have this issue all that often other than in the Ignis fight - though I can/do draw aggro in fights like KT, Razorscale etc and always need ot be pretty careful even though i religiously open with tricks to tranfer my aggro to the tank - all it takes is Heroism + a speed pot and I my Omen meter starts screaming at me (I have it set to warn at 90% threat).
I don't think my MT is badly geared and I guess he knows how to spec and all that (see The World of Warcraft Armory ) but I would like to check by asking here what should an MT be doing to hold aggro in the Ignis fight - i.e. what is the correct rotation to hold aggro. I'm then going to check and see that my MT is actually doing this because on mentioning this problem in unconstructive places (like the rogue forums) I just get told "your tank is bad etc". I'm sure he's not but maybe there is something he needs to know, change in his spec or whatever. I know nothing whatsoever about tanking having played rogue 5 years now and i'm honestly just keen to help advise him if I can on anything additional he can do in this fight to hold aggro - either that or accept that I am just going to have to hold back on damage.
I should add that this is in 10 man Ulduar and we do get Ignis down - it's just a painfully long process and holding back on damage is a pain in the proverbial.
He should spec into ATT (Armored To the Teeth) its three very good points for threat. Other than that there are never any threat issues on Ignis in my guild and people do comparable dps as you so you might want to say what tps your tank is doing so we can see if its a problem at his end.
Edit: He is both under the hit cap and the dodge cap for expertise. He might want to bump that up.
Re: armored to the teeth (which by the look of it increases AP)........does higher AP increase threat generation? I guess it obviously ups damage a bit which impacts on threat but does it also have another function in threat generation?
To be totally honest i have never looked at TPS but will do so now......
The fight itself is very mobilie for a tank so that does lower threat a bit, but he should still be doing just fine (as its not a rage limiting fight). So, make sure the tank isnt getting lazy on his rotation while trying to position ignis. Also, getting the tank to figure out the best way to reposition for scroch patches will help with threat uptime.
As far as yourself, the one thing I dont see listed is hand of salvation. Being a top caster DPS now, I have become a very close friend of HoSalv for fights like Hodir and General. Ignis is deffinitely a melee fight so get your pally(s) used to giving you HoSalv when you are out of tricks. Also, make sure the hunter continues to MD during the fight. This should help you push your DPS higher (as it would appear your threat capped).
I do find it funny that your GM and MT are telling you your DPS is to high though.... I would be so thankful for that problem from the sounds of it :P
Ah yes Hand of Salvation - I always used to have Blessing back in the day - that rocked but since they changed it no pallies seem to make much use of this. I'll remember to remind them - should help though it does have a 2 min CD :/ I guess I could put Anesthetic poison on my MH as well as that generates no threat (used to actively reduce threat).
Originally Posted by Ray
Come to think of it there is an old cloak enchant that reduces threat too - subtlety or something........could always chuck that on a backup cloak and use it for this encounter.
Thx for the tips.
I really have to agree with Glitter. The fact that he is way under soft cap for expertise will kill his TPS and his low hit hurts him even more. Tanking isn't just about having good avoidance and being able to survive the boss. its about being able to hold aggro as well.
His spec, imo, is a bit wonky. Iron Will and Anger Management are both pretty much useless for PvE tanking. And if you are only doing the first 5 bosses in Uld, Imp Spell Reflect is basically useless. As Glitter said Armored to the Teeth would help him. Also, he might consider moving some points into talents such as Focused Rage to reduce his ability costs. Less cost will help him output more.
I agree his spec is somewhat odd and his Expertise is low, but he should not be having that much trouble on Ignis even so.
Some Tanks are simply bad at holding threat while moving. Did this same Tank have threat issues on Heigan out of curiousity?
Sometimes this is due to the fact that they CLICK their abilities instead of keybinding them, and therefore cannot use their abilities effectively while moving. Other times it's a matter of inefficient keybindings which do not allow them to properly activate their abilities while moving. Often the Tank doesn't understand how to move properly while still facing and attacking the boss (strafing).
Make sure your tank:
a) Is using keybinds that allow him to use all of his primary threat abilities WHILE moving and turning.
b) Understands that the ideal boss movement technique is strafing. This allows you to remain facing the boss, using all primary threat abilities while still moving the boss from one place to another.
c) Is using Heroic Strike often enough.
Can you perhaps like a WWS of a recent Ignis fight?
Your tank is not specced for imp Heroic Strike or Focused Rage, but he has Anger Management, that's just odd. In general, his specs seems awkward, but not terrible. The glyphs are fine, though I'd change the glyph of sunder for a glyph of devastate.
There are many reasons why a tank could be low on threat, a WWS would be helpful.
A WWS will provide a better understanding of what hes doing. His spec does need work and hes blow the dodge expertise cap(26)... hes at 11. His hit isn't that big of an issue, he should be working on his expertise more than the hit. He has to worry about his abilities being dodged rather than just parry which is a huge TPS loss.
His Spec...needs some work... anger management is useless for PVE and iron Will the points should go into imp heroic strike.... even then that isn't the problem, because I doubt hes having rage issues, especially with his gear on Ignis.
Why is he gemming parry?, the parry trinket...
imp Spell reflect is kinda useless especially because you guys are 5 bosses in ulduar. He should put those points into focused rage.
I would suggest putting points into Armor to the teeth, and working on his expertise because its very low.
Oh I didn't see he was gemming for parry. Parry is NEVER better than dodge, if he needs purple gems he should be gemming for expertise-stam to make up for his lack of expertise. His block seems a bit high for tanking Ulduar, but I guess that shouldn't be a problem for threat.
Originally Posted by Morvadine
ya expertise/stam is what he needs to do.... for sure and tweaks in his spec would help. Even though threat shouldn't be an issue for any tank spec except for the general encounter.
Originally Posted by Molohk
If you can, please provide a WWS of your next Ignis attempts/kill. It will be a huge help in determining what the particular issue is. His spec isn't bad, his gemming isn't ideal, but given his overall stats, he shouldn't be having such an issue. Is he spamming heroic strike like a monster? Is he moving without continuing to build threat? A WWS will answer these questions, and help us, help you.
Your tanks problem is he needs to read up more on his class. I don't mean that as an insult it's just the truth. All of us start out ignorant so not knowing something isn't a crime :) Trying to do it all yourself or thinking you can't learn from others does make you a bad player.
He has bad gems weird gear choices and points in places they shouldn't be on a main tank spec. the best advice you can give him is send him here and to elitist jerks and tell him to read.
He would see a pretty big improvement just by fixing his spec and gems.
I think the above posts touched on all the basics.
Without a WWS report we can only give suggestions without really diagnosing the problem.
My guess is that he just needs a little help in the concepts of gemming, spec & possibly rotation.
The spec tells me a lot about the player, because it displays the things he cares about while fulfilling a role, and can give insights into his strengths & weaknesses.
Things like Iron Will give me the impression that he doesnt fully understand his class and/or role, and also he's almost exclusivly gemming for parry which is a huge no no, which again tells me he doesnt fully understand what hes doing.
Who knows what his rotation is like, but this also plays a major role in generating threat.
I would, like said above, direct him here and have him read up on gemming & spec concepts.
I think just by changing his spec, & switching his parry gems to expertise, he would see a significant increase to TPS.
Thanks for all the tips guys - much appreciated. I'll try to find a way to communicate them without causing offence.