A pally that cant hold threat

I am having issues holding threat and I don't know what I am doing wrong. When dual specs came out I decided to have another go at tanking. I have acquired a decent tank set while healing most 10/25 (pre ulduar) content. I keep running into problems with people pulling mobs off of me. I hear constantly that pallies have the some of the best threat in the game so I came here for some help because I can’t hold it.

Here is my armory
The World of Warcraft Armory

Heres how I start pulls
Pop divine plea(if available), avenger shield, judge, Shield of Righteousness, hammer of righteous, consecrate from there its all off of cool downs.

Last night I mt'd a pug 10 OS, on first pull I grabbed the caster, and started the rotation. I had threat pulled off me every which way and I was taunting mobs back on me, eating gcds so it kept getting worse. After we burned the mobs down, 3 people died. Pulled the next 2 mobs everything went fine. Boss fights were ok but dps kept getting close to over taking me on threat. As long as it was one or two mobs everything was fine, if it was more and things went down hill. I'd have no problem blaming this on the pug because we had some people doing stupid things, standing in void zones, had both healers hop in to a portal leaving me alone, a dps that didn't pay attention to how close he got to a twilight drake when a healer was afk, etc. But this is a recurring issue. On guild heroic runs I just can't keep the mobs on me.

And yes, I do keep righteous fury up at all times.

Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for any help you can offer. If this is something that experience will correct I have no problems with that. I just want to make sure I'm doing all I can.

I'm not a pally expert, but it sounds like you could improve your rotation:

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/...-rotation.html

Try using consecration earlier in your rotation; I know that seems like it won't be a big deal, but whenever I dps for a pally tank, it seems like they're using consecration as a second or third move in their rotation. Also, if you're having real issues with threat, try using HoS on the highest aggro grabbing dps to see if you can drop his threat a bit. Other than that it just sounds like your dps needs to focus fire a little better.

The problem is your rotation. Judgement is not cast for threat it is cast so that you and your group benefit from the judgement buff. Basically pallies have a rotation called the 96969 rotation. Basically you intermix your 9 second cool downs with your 6 second cool downs. The standard rotation is: pull,
shield of righteousness, holy shield, hammer of righteousness, judgment, shield of righteousness, consecrate, hammer of righteousness, holy shield, repeat...

Your big threat moves being shield and hammer of righteousness.

As a pally tank my rotation is as follows:
pull avengers shield/ single target pull
Holy shield, consecrate, hammer of Righteousness, judge, Shield of Righteousness, rinse repeat

What seal are you using also?

I myself use vengence or righteousness

Against groups, the DPS needs to not be morons and you should be fine with consecration and hammers.

Against single targets, go like this.
If you pull them to you:
Throw Shield, exorcism, drop consecration, walk backwards to the edge of the consecration, holy shield, he should reach you by now, so shield of righteousnesslam - judge - hammer of the righteous - holy shield (you are in 969 from this point on.)
Before the mob even reaches you, you have frontloaded a lot of threat.

When you walk to them, make sure DPS waits to attack until you position him, throw your shield, holy shield, judge, shor, cons, hotr, holy shield (you are in 969 now).

Against groups, remember that naxx is mostly undead, so use a glyphed sense undead, holy wrath and exorcism for big threat boosts.

Make sure you have righteous fury up :D

I know the 9696 rotation is very popular and the "right" way to tank, but I also do not use it. In fact, my rotation is very similar to yours. However, remember to use Exorcism in PVE, and also that you don't have to have lost aggro to taunt the target. If you often have threat problems, it may not be a bad idea to throw taunt into the rotation. I use it all the time when I already have aggro, especially on fights where I tend to generate less threat, like Heigan, or when the raid will be dealing more than the usual damage, like Malygos.

From a non-threat perspective, be sure you're using Holy Shield and Sacred Shield anytime they wear off, since they will greatly reduce the damage you take.

Your spec looks pretty good. You can see mine here: The World of Warcraft Armory

Purely from anecdotal evidence, a slightly higher threat build would be to remove 2pts from Crusade, and 3pts from HotC. Allocate those points to have 4/5 Benediction and 5/5 Conviction.

Ret Paladins will apply HotC. Having 4/5 Benediction will ensure that you never run out of mana and go into pulls with nearly full mana (especially if you only have 1/2 Spiritual Attunement). I didn't see you mention if you have mana issues or not.

I use SoR every time it is up, this helps a lot with threat.

Did you have a Disc Priest in your group? I notice that my sustained threat is a lot lower with a Disc Priest depending on which enoucnter we are on (they can reduce your threat by 5%).

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Originally Posted by kfealz

I know the 9696 rotation is very popular and the "right" way to tank, but I also do not use it.

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Not using 969 properly is a dps and threat loss. Learn it. Set up your keybinbds in a logical order and force yourself to practice it until you can do it without thinking/looking. I can spam 969 while running in circles, yelling at people on vent to GTFO of the ouch, watching raid frames, etc. etc. Not bothering to learn and use 969 rotation is the same as saying you're content with being a mediocre tank.

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Originally Posted by Hautian

Purely from anecdotal evidence, a slightly higher threat build would be to remove 2pts from Crusade, and 3pts from HotC. Allocate those points to have 4/5 Benediction and 5/5 Conviction.

Ret Paladins will apply HotC. Having 4/5 Benediction will insure that you never run out of mana and go into pulls with nearly full mana (especially if you only have 1/2 Spiritual Attunement). I didn't see you mention if you have mana issues or not.

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Crusade>Conviction for threat. His build IS a threat build, the only way he could get slightly more would be to shift the two points in PoJ over to Conviction, and it would be a very small increase.

Benediction is wasted talent points for prot, always has been, always will be. I can maintain a full rotation from divine plea alone without being the target of the boss, which means no mana back from SA or sanctuary.

Also, 1/2 SA is all that is necessary for most encounters. The one exception that I have come across is General Vezax on ten man. Because his aura doesn't allow divine plea to work I had to respec to grab the second point in SA to keep from going OOM, but that is the only time I have ever felt that 1/2 in SA was not enough.

One comment about the OP's gear, you're well below the hit cap. If you have a couple peices of tank gear with hit rating, swap them on. The neck piece for badges would be a good start. Don't go overboard on hit, but 150-200 should be good for your gear level.

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Crusade>Conviction for threat. His build IS a threat build, the only way he could get slightly more would be to shift the two points in PoJ over to Conviction, and it would be a very small increase.

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I disagree with this statement as not all bosses are Demons, Elemental, Undead or Humanoid. Having all abilities crit more is a significant threat increase.

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Benediction is wasted talent points for prot, always has been, always will be. I can maintain a full rotation from divine plea alone without being the target of the boss, which means no mana back from SA or sanctuary.

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Skyrnir did not indicate whether he had mana issues or not. I can not maintain a full rotation without mana return just using Divine Plea since for regen, maybe the OP has the same issue. Either way, if tou have a Ret Paladin in your group, then HotC is useless.

Akeber, please explain to me how you can constantly cast and never run out of mana without returns from SA or Sanct. Is this in 10 or 25 man? What raid mana returns do you have?

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Originally Posted by Akeber

Not using 969 properly is a dps and threat loss. Learn it. Set up your keybinbds in a logical order and force yourself to practice it until you can do it without thinking/looking. I can spam 969 while running in circles, yelling at people on vent to GTFO of the ouch, watching raid frames, etc. etc. Not bothering to learn and use 969 rotation is the same as saying you're content with being a mediocre tank.


***Quote from Hautian regarding Benediction (scroll up).


Crusade>Conviction for threat. His build IS a threat build, the only way he could get slightly more would be to shift the two points in PoJ over to Conviction, and it would be a very small increase.

Benediction is wasted talent points for prot, always has been, always will be. I can maintain a full rotation from divine plea alone without being the target of the boss, which means no mana back from SA or sanctuary.

Also, 1/2 SA is all that is necessary for most encounters. The one exception that I have come across is General Vezax on ten man. Because his aura doesn't allow divine plea to work I had to respec to grab the second point in SA to keep from going OOM, but that is the only time I have ever felt that 1/2 in SA was not enough.

One comment about the OP's gear, you're well below the hit cap. If you have a couple peices of tank gear with hit rating, swap them on. The neck piece for badges would be a good start. Don't go overboard on hit, but 150-200 should be good for your gear level.

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QFT.

Akeber hit all the points I was going to add, save one. Swap out the Righteous Defense glyph for either Judgment or Hammer of the Righteous.

Glyph of Judgement = slight threat/dps increase
Glyph of HoR = 4 mob cleave (vice 3).

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Originally Posted by Hautian

....SNIP....

Skyrnir did not indicate whether he had mana issues or not. I can not maintain a full rotation without mana return just using Divine Plea since for regen, maybe the OP has the same issue. Either way, if tou have a Ret Paladin in your group, then HotC is useless.

Akeber, please explain to me how you can constantly cast and never run out of mana without returns from SA or Sanct. Is this in 10 or 25 man? What raid mana returns do you have?

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If you're running out of mana (and you have BoSanc up), then you overgear the instance and/or your not getting hit enough.

Situational things you can do to help (in no particular order):

• Use Consecrate less.
• Cast HoSac on someone (melee dps is usually good).
• Judge Wisdom.
• Pull more mobs

I MT for my 10man Ulduar group and have no trouble maintaining mana. Vezax is a little iffy, but it's a gimmick fight (we're still learning him too). I've just recently gotten to the point where in 5man heroics I won't even drop consecrate unless I'm pulling more than 3 mobs.

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Originally Posted by Hautian

I disagree with this statement as not all bosses are Demons, Elemental, Undead or Humanoid. Having all abilities crit more is a significant threat increase.

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Most are one of those four. What's left? Dragonkin or Mechanical.

We're still talking about relatively minor differences. 5-10% threat with or without those talents won't make a big enough difference to compensate for the deficiency the OP is having. It's probably still a question of perfecting his rotation.

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Originally Posted by Hautian

Akeber, please explain to me how you can constantly cast and never run out of mana without returns from SA or Sanct. Is this in 10 or 25 man? What raid mana returns do you have?

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10 or 25. I usually have BoW or a mana spring, and replenishment. BoW/Mana spring (they don't stack) isn't enough to sustain a full rotation, and the way replenishment works (based off total mana pool) it isn't going to do much with a prot pally's anemic mana pool.

If I'm prot specced/geared loldpsing (not tanking) I can keep a full rotation, minus holy shield and subsituting exorcism (cause I'm not tanking anything anyway), as long as I keep divine plea up.

I see no utility at all in Divine Sacrifice for a tank. The 2 points in DG might be ok, if you are good about keeping your own Sacred Shield up while tanking, but I've never been.

However you do unfortunately need to throw away 3 points at the top of the tree to access the bottom of the tree (I have no idea why bliz thinks prot pallies tree should be sooo pearshaped, but I assume it is to keep other specs from getting anything close to useful for them out of our tree).

Personally I put those 3 points into Reckoning, because it IS a tps increase, and it is more procing of seals and judgments (if you are into that sort of thing) so it can be a survivability thing too... honestly though it is just damned useful for soloing.

HoJ can be used as an interrupt even if the mobs are immune to the stun, so you might want to sink some points into improving that, being able to hop/hof more often can be useful too, it is really your call, but IMHO DS/DG is a pretty much total and complete waste of 3 points, that you could be only mostly wasting in other talents.

For what it is worth: The World of Warcraft Armory

As others have stated your "rotation" is a bit off. I'm not a big fan of sticking to set in stone"rotations" I tend to hit the best button that isn't on cd given my current situation, granted that usually falls into a fairly "normal" rotation most of the time, but you can toss out things like Avenger Shield and Exorcism at times other than the pull and gain some decision making... keep in mind you might want to have those cool downs up for the next pack, so figuring out your pacing is important (also it is sometimes a good idea NOT to drop that last consecrate if the mobs are about to die, so you can move your aoe to the next group, as the bear/prot warrior in your raid WILL charge them without asking if you are ready.)

Personally if I'm pulling trash mobs, I'll hit holy shield, toss AS (glyphed) at whatever I think people will be hitting first (generally the largest target as dps will tend to kill whatever is easiest to click on first), then while the mobs are on their way to me (and I'm on my way to them) I'll hit a different Mob with Exorcism, as soon as they are in range my priority is to get HoR and Consecrate on the pack... because AoE will have probably started as soon as they saw the AS flying I may have to spend a GCD on a taunt or two (I love that pallies have two) to get the mobs off a particularly stupid mage or warlock (HoP is kind of bad as this will just cause the mobs to shift to the next stupidest AoE dpser instead of back to you, wasting the GCD and killing someone who may not have really deserved it), from there I just click or tab cycle through the group of mobs slamming them with whatever is off cooldown, spending a GCD or so on each one of them (getting white hits in on all of them to stack blood corruption in addition to the spread from HoR) priority is HoR/Conc/HolyShield of course, then whatever the most threat single target move I have off GCD.

Bosses get similar treatment except I tend to let things like consecration fall off in favor of getting in extra single target AS/Exorcism whenever possible, and I use the wings on the pull for that extra little bit o threat to get things started.

I really should run a wws and WowWebStats Tps Calculator to prove the insane numbers I generate because I don't think people believe me at all when I tell them things like 10-12k sustained tps.

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Originally Posted by cudmaster

I see no utility at all in Divine Sacrifice for a tank.

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Anytime you're not tanking something and the raid is taking heavy damage? For example, Stormcaller when he goes in the air, or phase two mimiron right after a laser barrage when all the ranged/healers are getting repositioned. The damage from these is far worse on 25 than on 10.

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Originally Posted by cudmaster

I really should run a wws and WowWebStats Tps Calculator to prove the insane numbers I generate because I don't think people believe me at all when I tell them things like 10-12k sustained tps.

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Yes you should, because I really don't believe that you are sustaining that much threat (without TotT or MDs) in any kind of progression tanking gear.

Anyone who is truly interested in palading threat generation (what stats and what rotation are best) should go read this thread:
Maintankadin • View topic - Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Feel free to post there if you disagree with any of Theck's work.

double post

hello anyway i never had any probs with threat while i'm tanking and i'm using 969 mech only cuz i tanked for so long and i devoloped it naturally i have only probs with over aggroing the main tank while OT ya stupid but some times i can't help it . anyways u can change the glyph of the righteous defense with glyph of judgment to do more dmg plus more aggro u can lose pursute of justice and crusade and judgements of the just and get seals of the pure and more points in conviction u can try that if u want

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Originally Posted by Shinigamisan

u can lose pursute of justice and crusade and judgements of the just and get seals of the pure and more points in conviction u can try that if u want

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0/53/18 is a higher threat spec.

(Source)

As was stated above, learn to be one with the 969 rotation it's not some flashy gimmick. It's the most widely used things by paladins because it's the best thing to use. I would not recommend glyphing your avenger's shield down to a single target no matter the reasoning to be honest it's a waste of a glyph slot. I currently use Glyph of Divine Plea, Glyph of Seal of Vengeance (unless you are at the expertise cap, I'm at between 18-26 depending on gear) and Glyph of Hammer of the Righteousness.

My current build: 05/59/07
Here's my TPS parse: Kelstet produced 7437 tps vs Full report (last monday's naxx 25)

Debates around Divine Sacrifice/Divine guardian; as was posted we aren't always the MT, and there's alot of situational times when decreasing the damage intake for an entire raid is something your healers will thank you for. I would say picking up Divinity will help as well, increasing healing done to you I switched to that when we progressed into Ulduar and it's helped a ton. Reckoning, is trash and a waste of points imo, just make sure to stick with the basics for dmg/threat/tanking when spec'ing.

Additionally if you aren't hit capped you have a chance for your taunts to miss as well as not hit the bosses/mobs effectively. If you don't want to glyph the hammer I would pick up the glyph that increases the effectiveness of your righteous defense taunt. Also if the heals are there and you feel comfortable doing it, as long as you have the gear I sometimes tank with SoB it helps my DPS not stay capped and my DPS goes up as well. All other times I'm tanking with Vengeance\Corruption for my Seal.

My rotation is: Consecrate, Holy shield, Avengers, hammer, judge, shield of the righteous, rinse wash repeat.

Just my two cents

Kel