First off, I'd like to tip my hat to Geros. His posts are a bit more civilized. I appreciate the spirit of his replies. He's the first person to point out felhoof's credentials. After many years of playing, I have just recently started devoting time to a site, namely this one, when not browsing info sites (EJ, wowhead, etc.). Without knowing this, all I see is a guy who just joined tankspot this month. Still, it would be nice to have a calm discussion with somebody who is knowledgeable instead of a needless argument.
*sigh* yes that was a mistake. However, we aren't discrediting Darksend's knowledge or good work because he couldn't add to 20 points earlier in this post. And he's a community author.
Originally Posted by felhoof
I did, repeating is not going to help. At this point it's an argument and no longer a discussion, so I'm not going to go much further. It's a pity, I think this could have gone positively otherwise, and I respect the fact that you are regarded as an expert in feral druids, if not debating without attacking.
I asked you for one example. You've still failed to give me one. I still can't come up with one where you're not being hit, you need to put massive front loaded threat early and you won't have rage to do it in. Can you?
Holding threat at all costs and survival are all that you need to worry about as a tank. If you notice you are not surviving or holding threat, and investing 1 point somewhere that works, that's worth investigating. Again, this is not a gospel, it's an investigation into a potential spec.
If the MT is on another target, you're tanking that mob and you can assume reasonably high rage intake. I ask again - would 10 rage matter in 6 seconds time if you get so unlucky that you aren't getting any rage from being hit, from your white attack, from Natural Reaction
, and from crits? Is this situation so crucial that you'd rather spend a talent point there?
Darksend could be right, that point could be spent elsewhere. It would be great to say "If you spent a point here and did this.." to accomplish the same task. My situation is that I OCCASIONALLY find myself on initial pull with no rage, growl down, and scrambling to grab aggro because I have no rage to do anything else. The responses so far have been "That will never happen" instead of "In this situation, putting 4/5 furor is inferior to XXX distribution of points because...". That is a better way to go about this.
I should have clarified, by multiple targets, I mean waves rather than simultaneously. Swipe crits work all the time with several mobs at once, yes.
If you're assigned to multiple light-hitting adds, swipe provides more than enough rage most of the time. Swipe + NR will definitely do so.
Better gear, smarter raiders, these are all valid answers. Unfortunately, better gear doesn't always come by well in pugs, and smarter raiders in pugs isn't happening either. If one of those changes, I probably wouldn't be having this discussion.
If you can't secure aggro quickly, you can usually deal with this by either having smarter raiders, having MD/tott, or taunting.
Finally, the heart of the discussion. So far, investing that 1 talent point has made a difference for me (but not enough to keep it in the long run). It has made things smoother, I find the extra 10 rage is solving something in that I don't find myself in that situation any more.
None of these things would be solved with 10 more rage in 6 seconds, and using your math that one talent point mitigates this situation down from 6% of the time to 1%. So 6% of the time you're not going to have 10 rage that you might have wanted for these edge cases.
Is that really worth 1 talent point?
There are a lot of things that are edge cases, and it is a bit of a grey area. Keeping specfic gear for situations, a dualspec or respecc for gimmick fights, and so on. It's not the norm but it happens, and people progress beyond it as they learn better ways to do things.
If I did, then it would invalidate the premises of the discussion. I've agreed that not being expertise/hit capped means you should be taking PP above all else.
That's true - but these things are FAR more likely if you have worse hit/expertise.
That is a bit of the quirk of it all. It *is* unlikely to happen, but I noticed happening far too often to ignore it. That's the nature of RNG, you sometimes get a string of occurences. Along these lines, it could be entirely co-incidental that my shift to 4/5 furor has nothing to do with the fact I am no longer facing these situations, it's just that RNG is co-operating now and am incorrectly attributing the changes to another co-incidence. That's another way to look at things without resorting to character assasination. But hey, thanks for the benefit of the doubt.
It just seems like you're fabricating theoretical worst-case scenarios that will simply not reasonably happen. Basically you're saying that you want 10 more rage for the situation where you go to bear 3 times and don't get 10 rage (6%), then must open up with a maximum threat rotation, don't have any MD/ToTT up, have great DPS, don't get any crits on any of your attacks for 6 seconds (that's at least 5 attacks), don't dodge (in 6 seconds time that's at least 4 attacks), don't get hit (so you missed all of those, each of which has about a 9% chance of missing).
are you starting to see how insanely unlikely this situation is?