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I dont know, I think warriors do great in single target aggro. When I tank (off spec) I dont have the best gear, especially when compared to our DPS, and I have no problems holding aggro on single targets. AoE threat yeah, we stink compared to Pallys, and Druids have everyone in the HP pool. Just my opinion, some of the people who love math may be able to prove me wrong, but every raid we run, the Pally takes the adds and warrior gets on the boss. Seems to work great for us.
Here are my recommendations.
1. No, we don't need a DOT thunderclap. That would just put more processing load on the server. Just reduce the cool down to 4 sec or remove the cool down. :)
Maybe change the glyph to reduce thunderclap cool down by 2 sec.
2. Prot warriors don't need whirlwind for aoe. Buff thunderclap and shockwave instead.
Give whirlwind to Arms.
3. Yes, make sword and board proc a free shield slam. This will take away one less ability that I have to monitor. If I have to monitor S&B, then I am not monitoring other things that are more important.
4. Make devastate scale with AP and remove the plus damage per sunder. Maybe 25% AP. Either way, devastate needs to be buffed so that it is secondary in damage and threat production behind shield slam.
5. Make spell reflect work on boss abilities or add a disclaimer "Spell Reflect does not work on spells cast by bosses." Provide damage mitigation is probably better for example 25% damage absorbed or absorb 2x block value in damage while the buff is up. Also give the party members the buff through talents.
6. I like vigilance. It can be good or bad. It depends on your interpretations. It should also give the warrior 3% damage mitigation and gives 3 rage every time you dodge,parry, or block an attack. Or instead of gaining rage from dodge/parry/block, you gain 3 rage per sec while in combat. I would rather have rage regen per sec.
7. The 10% damage reduction when in defensive stance can stay. Just buff prot warrior damage by 10-20% to compensate.
8. Heroic Strike should scale with AP instead of a fixed value and remove the + threat component. Maybe 25% AP and cost 30 rage.
9. Puncture should also give a self buff with 4/8/10% additional armor penetration. This will entice prot warriors to spent points into the talent.
What if Sword and Board also proccd an Overpower opportunity as a way to increase DPS while not actually tanking. Then Prot warriors could Dual Weild in Bstance and Devastate spam...
I don't have time to address the other points before I head to work, but I definitely would like to address your comment on vigilance. When your dps get fully BIS gear and are consistently pulling 4-6k dps, vigilance starts to really shine. And it really, really shines on picking up adds on 3d Sarth, making warriors actually the best add tanks. The ability might be situational and dependent on your dps, but believe me, I'd be dying without the talent now that my dps are all geared to the teeth.
On Spell reflect:
NOW:
Spell Reflection
Raise your shield, reflecting the next spell cast on you. Lasts 5 sec.
Improved Spell reflect
Reduces the chance you'll be hit by spells by 4% and when the ability is used it will reflect the first spell cast against the 4 closest party members.
how it should look like:
Spell Reflection
Raise your shield, reflecting the next spell cast on you and reducing all spell damage by 5% until next spell cast on you is reflected. Lasts 5 sec.
Improved Spell reflect
Reduces the chance you'll be hit by spells by 4% and when the ability is used it will reduce spell damage to all party/raid members in 30yard radius by 10%.
Glyph of Spell reflect
Increase damage reduction from spell reflect ability by 20% (25% in total with 5% base) but increase cooldown by 20 seconds.
* * *
This can sort problems warriors have tanking Sartharion 3D and also reducing incoming dmg on bosses where you cannot spellreflect, also it's not overpowered since as soon as SR reflect spell - buff is gone, so you either SR it or you have magic mitigation.
On Revenge
Revenge:
Instantly counterattack an enemy for [1454 + AP * 0.207] to [1776 + AP * 0.207] damage. Revenge is only usable after the warrior blocks, dodges or parries an attack.
How should revenge look:
Instantly attack an enemy for [1454 + AP * 0.207] to [1776 + AP * 0.207] damage. Revenge is only usable after the warrior or anyone in the party blocks, dodges or parries an attack.
Improved Revenge 2/2
Increases damage of your Revenge ability by 20% and gives a 50% chance to stun the target for 3 sec.
Improved Revenge 2/2 talent shall be
Increases damage of your Revenge ability by 20% and makes it usable in any stance.
* * *
This will sort some of prot warrior dps when not tanking.
On Thunder Clap:
Thunderclap
Blasts nearby enemies increasing the time between their attacks by 10% for 30 sec and doing 300 damage to them. Damage increased by attack power. This ability causes additional threat.
New Thunderclap
Blasts nearby enemies increasing the time between their attacks by 10% and movement speed by 5% for 30 sec and doing 300 damage to them. Damage increased by attack power. This ability causes additional threat.
* * *
We dont need aditional dot - just cba to go deeper into fury to pick Piercing howl (Vene's blog post about OT spec with it is nice but still), slowing part will help with better tanking mobs in heroics and raids.
Certainly Dev needs buffing as it's considered a tragic waste of a gcd at the moment.
In particular it needs to increase our viability as OT Dps in a situation where we aren't taking hits to proc Revenge. The trick for the developers will be in not making it better than Revenge. The 15% crit was obviously intended to make it competitive but it simply isn't enough as it stands. But yeah, 80% would probably be a little too much.
Generally speaking, I'd like to see our dps increased to compensate for our mediocre performance in other areas such as EH and aoe threat. Can't we be the single-target dps kings?
I feel that one of the big issues with Devastate is simply how far down in the tree it is, even though its become a fairly mediocre ability. Proposed changes in here all seem viable in my opinion.
I agree with most that Vigilance is awesome and shouldn't be moved or changed much.
I'm not sure Thunderclap needs much change. Between the talent and glyphs available, its pretty awesome. I do understand the desire for a form of DoT as some mobs are just slower than others and sometimes aren't in range (therefore, doesn't get hit, first attack landed by dps and they go running after them, tank gets mad, pulls out hair). But that is sorta helped with the glyph to increase its range. Maybe its base range could be upped.
Didn't TC used to have a slowing affect similar to this built into it back in the day? I don't recall things so well, so I can't be entirely sure.Quote:
Blasts nearby enemies increasing the time between their attacks by 10% and movement speed by 5% for 30 sec
I do think the decrease in damage from Defensive Stance is a little lame. It's like being punished because you want to let things beat on you. One thing that I think gets overlooked here in relation to spell damage is the fact that two points in Improved Defensive Stance yields 6% of spell damage being mitigated. You also get your 100% change on a block, dodge, or parry to enrage giving you back that 10% you lost (if only for a few seconds).
On the flip side, Battle Stance should have something added to it. As it's always been, Battle Stance gives you nothing aside from changing what abilities you can and can't use (and there's really only a few that would be changed out). There isn't even any talents to give it some benefit.
A good way to change Spell Reflect is to make it similar to a block (based off your shield block value) and then change it to a passive ability. When you block it reads "Boss A's melee swing hits your for X physical (Y blocked)." So essentially this would read "Boss A's Shadowbolt hits you for X shadow (Y reflected)." This way the ability won't be wasted and could have some use on bosses since the current version doesn't do anything. Cause honestly, how often do you really use it? I know I don't bother touching it unless dealing with trash or things outside of raids. Being passive would be awesome and less worrysome.
One thought I had pop into my head is a talent similar to Warbringer (or it being changed rather) that affects all abilities, not just Charge. So the stance requirements are all negated. This would allow the warrior to make use of all his abilities, ragardless of whether he's tanking or doing some DPS. Something would have to be set in place though to control Shield Wall, Retaliation, and w/e the one for Battle Stance is. If not, these could get out of control. Maybe something as simple as they all share their CD. This in the end would help settle alot of complaints about TPS/DPS output (especially in AoE settings).
Pardon any tangents...(wow, I said "think" in there alot of times, let me get rid of some of those...)
Buffing SW and TClap to increase our DPS imo is just boring. I want something else to do with my GCDs... whether making cleave better (more like swipe) or giving us the ability to use whirlwind. Even if you reduce the cooldown to 4secs it still leaves a ton of wasted CDs and its still as boring as before. By adding whirlwind you actully have a bit more fun.
Mookey, love the SR idea... basically the same thought as mine, just with a better explination. Hopefully it will catch on... this would be my favorite of all the changes.
Lastly, as I will state again, I do not believe Vigiliance is bad, I think it is a great talent, but it does not redefine our class. That is how 31st point talents have always work for warriors. That is my problem with it. I do not wish to lose Vigiliance, as that to me is unacceptable, however, I dont think it lives up to the 31st talent warriors have always had.
Last reminder 10% increase does not put us back at 100% it puts us at 99%. 10% increase of 90% damage is 99. So our being pissed off is less damage still then being in arms/fury.
I think overall damage needs to be buffed somewhere between 10-20%. And if they nerf DW more, or make prot more attractive where taking it is even less of an option maybe more.
This can be done with multiple ways, devistate buffs, removal of 10% damage reduction, making our AP coefficients better. Each are a little different ways of netting the same effect, but I think it needs to be done.
In practice, Vigilance has become a kind of lame warrior version of Sanctuary... 3% damage reduction to target, blah blah blah. And it kinda relegates us to off-tank/add tank (due to the refreshing of taunt, which is really nice). Now, I see how it could really start to shine when popped on an uber DPS who is cranking out the threat. But in all... the mixture of damage reduction to target and threat transferral doesn't really make sense. If a clothie (DPS, healer) steals aggro, 3% damage reduction isn't gonna help when Big Nasty takes his swing.
I am really liking the idea of a damage increase... mmm... ratcheting TPS transfer effect.
If there's any one thing that Warriors can't bring to the table but other classes can it's not TPS or DPS - it's buffs.
A pally, druid or DK tank can all offer something in the form of gift of the wild, kings, might, etc. That DK thing with the blood... I can't remember the name of it.
What do warriors have? Battle shout? We used to. But now Battle shout doesn't stack with the better Blessing of Might, which also lasts 15 minutes. Or... crap, I can't remember it's name... Commanding Shout. Sure it's a great chunk of health. But it's a freaking two minute duration!
Oh, and I quite like vigilance, I put it on our mage, our highest DPS... gives him a bit of a safety margin and me some free threat.
I'd love to see devastate damage back up to 80% dmg. Its tied to my heroic strike so I end up spamming it often. Though the only fight i purposely spam it on is loatheb, where a few dps trinkets, raid buffs, and Incite = 95%+ crit and more deep wounds spam.
If S&B auto procc'ed a sheild slam....that would bring a tear to my eyes.
If blizz doesn't do something about our penalty stances as a whole I'll be very sad. Removing the damage penalty alone, would make huge strides for our tps/dps.
To me these threads always go in 2 directions:
1) What can we change to our current abilities to make us better at threat/dps/aoe/survival
or
2) What new ability can we devise that will make us better at threat/dps/aoe/survival
Our existing talents all do the above and they are continually being refined and juggled to pimp one element or another.
There have been breakthroughs and new abilities with the wow factor we all desire. Shockwave was definitely one as was devastate.
But to be original you need to consider what a warrior does and is expected to do and find the area/aspect which we currenly dont have that we probably should.
To me the obvious upgrade has to be shouts. commands. This area of our reportoire has been screaming for an overhaul for too long.
Thunderclap can be improved through a glyph, its a start but i would like to see more.
Demo shout, battle shout, commanding shout are all lack lustre now at lvl 80 and need improving or have a new shout added.
A front line warrior should be able to effectively kill from behind a shield..look at the romans.
But what about teaming up... how effective would 2 warrior tanks acting together be at tanking big bosses.
perhaps a bonus to armor ? by having two shields operating together ? a chance to reduce magical effects essentially shielding the raid. ?
The possibilities are limitless but i think if we just keep saying..buff devastate to do more dps....buff TC to aoe dps more...we will always keep asking for buffs.
To be clever i think we need to consider making the class traits more colourful.
I can, I think they are freaking horrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma
Why do people keep trying to turn Warriors, and other tanks classes for that matter, into the same damned class? If I wanted to fart holy dust for a living, I would have rolled a Paladin to tank. If I wanted to by a teddy bear, I would have rolled a Druid. If I wanted glowing eyes, I would have been a Death Knight. But, I didn't, because I wanted to be a Warrior. If you want all this crap, reroll to another class instead of trying to impose the crap you like about other tanking classes upon the entire Warrior population. I am starting to get sick of this trend to homogenize all tank classes into the same thing with the same capabilities.
1) We might need more damage, but not that much, and who knows how tanks will be balanced together as a raid commodity in the future. Deep wounds is getting a nerf in the near future that will make this spec less appealing to most tanks. The damage for other classes is going to scale better than Protection Warriors as time goes on anyway, making the need for 200 more DPS from a tank more and more trivial.Quote:
Originally Posted by cattebrie
2) If you can't keep AoE threat, it is your own problem. Yes, it is easier for Paladin's and Death Knights to keep AoE threat, but that does not mean they are a significant advantage. I for one like that there is some skill required to playing a Warrior in AoE situations.
3) Making everything easymode does not make it more fun.
Whirlwind in Defensive stance is just a stupid idea in my opinion. As a warrior tanking mobs and holding the line the last thing I'm going to do is spin around in a damn cirlce. I know WoW isn't based in reality but come on guys, the idea of that mechanic is just too far a stretch. If they do add it in they better make it so you can't dodge/parry/block for a global cooldown just to prove how dumb an idea it is to spin around and get dizzy while tankg.... /rant off
Ideas:
1) TClap- Glyph of TClap- Reduces initial damage by half, but adds a dot that last 6secs. (would do more damage, but less up front)
Why?
This one I actually like. IMO Warriors are the snap agro kings, and that's what we have shockwave for, with the new glyph of shockwave, maybe mod the glyph so reduces it to 10, but removes the stun.
2) Whirlwind- Add a 1-Point talent (maybe replace vigilince with it) that makes whirlwind usable in defensive stance. Plus on top of the weapon damage, whirlwind now also deals Damage if a shield is equiped equal to Shield block value.
Why?
I believe prot warrior DPS lies in rage issues, not abilites. We have the abilites, just need the rage to use em. with rage... you can push 2200 as a tank... without rage... well. ya know. To be fair, we're tanks, NOT dps, while i believe we're a bit under par, I use it as an excuse to MT things we have on farm so I don't get bored ^_^
3) S&B- I love the talent, but it makes me worry about another RNG. I would rather be worrying about my healers, my health bar, and any cooldowns i need to pop at any give moment. So how can we fix this...
Simply make Sword and Board Proc a free shield slam, instead of reseting the six seconds.
This I disagree with. Procing it, allows me to tab, free SS, and tab back, and spread some threat out. For single target, it's ideal, but with the current warrior tab spam for AoE threat, we need to be able to select our target. A fun idea is to maybe have crit effect chance for S+B to proc, putting more value into cruelty, and with the thought increasing prot DPS.
4) Devestate back to 80% Damage.
Why?
This I like. With Dev(sunder) going to % based instead of flat rate, it's going to be a bit more useful for nearly all situations, without hurting us as is. with TG now, fury warriors are NOT interested, so this only helps us. Maybe not 80%, or your going to see slow tank weps be ideal and pass HS in threat, but a buff might be in order.
5) Spell Reflect- Ok, its just useless too much of the time, so what I was thinking was like a mini shield wall for spell damage attacks.
Imp Spell Reflect- Currently what it does, but also reduces incoming magical damage for 3secs by 10%/20% for the next 3 secs.
Why?
Spell reflect currently is a 5 sec duration. I like the concept. Rage cost can be the same, maybe a glyph to mod it, however that might make the glyph manditory. I think the answer lies it talents, it's even already there... change it to damage reduction instead of miss chance for things like breaths. 'Imp. Spell Ref. - Also reduces magical damage taken by xx% while spell reflect is active.'
6) Vigiliance- Not worthy of 31st point talent make it trainable.
I like Vigi. If they nerf BoS, it's going to become much more valuable. I'm still not completely happy with this talent, concept is there, nice DR is there, but it still seems... so... gimp. No thoughts, but it could use a buffing, warriors have no buffs, give us 1!
7) Remove 10% Damage Reduction from Defensive Stance and Add some Percentage to Health. Not a lot... 3-5%
Why? Why not? Actually I personally dont ahve a problem with the penalty/bonus thing with our stances... But right now our DPS and EH is lacking compared to other tanks. And as stam goes up the difference in health will only increase.
We've seen the topic on this, I think our EH is fine... palies and warriors have lower due to block... I'm ok with this... as long as we stay clear of big breath doing dragons... uh oh. I don't think we need a EH buff, I think we need magi damage mitigation buff. The penalty from def stance is countered by 1h wep spec, and enrage... we're actually up 10%... however when we're not tanking.. again lies the age old warrior problem.
I think this would fix many problems such as:
1) The need to go Deep Wounds to even get close in damage to the other tanks. Without the need to get DW, we can have more flexability in our prot talent choices
2) Getting us closer to the Sustained AoE threat of Pallys and DKs
3) Makes it more fun, and dont think it really makes us broken. Most changes increast DPS/TPS, and only mitigation improvement is with SR, so I dont think its unballancing.
I like the fact that DW is attainable, gives us a good DPS boost, as an OT especially. I do think our prot tree is BEEFY as a Mofo.. but we'll see what happens. I like our snap threat, I'm not such a big fan of faceroll consecrate. I charge in, round em up, pop shield block, and our DK/Pali buddies pull em off us by the time shield block is wore off. I hit TC/SW again, and they come back, nice little tag manuever. Warriors are the activity kings, anyone who watches recount will notice yer prot warriors at the top, due to mainly que'ing 2 abilities every 1.5 seconds.
I think our DK/Druid buddies need more work that warriors due, but we all have our class gripes. I would kill for some DPS while OTing.. thats for sure.
Vigilance is a great TPS talent, and that is the problem. It is true that you get a good chunk of TPS from your highest DPSer, but this comes at the cost of the warrior doing less TPS themselves. Warrior threat is being balanced around Vigilance and that is why War DPS while tanking is the lowest of the tank classes. If Wars did equal DPS to other tanks, our threat would be to high because of Vigilance.
Vigilance needs to go, then give Wars 5-6% TPS buff through increased DPS. Devastate is probably the best candidate for an increase. This would also help Wars in OT and non-tanking situations.
Bayo, you sir are an idiot. If you think any of my ideas make us like paladins is stupid and ignorant. You latched onto one idea that you didn't like and dont even know what you are talking about.
I want to make TClap have a bleed on the target, not do a conc like effect. It is a glyph because it sacrifices Snap agro for some extra sustained damage. If you dont like it fine, but it doesn't make us like pallys in any way. The mechanic is entirely different.
In no ways do any of my changes make us shoot fire from our eyes or any other ilk that you stated. If you dont like the ideas, then shoot them down when your arguement is clearly stupid in the first place.
I wouldn't expect all or even any of the chances to go in effect. They are stand alone ideas that we would only need one or two changes to balance us with the rest of the tanks.
Personally I always have wanted to WW in defense stance but with my shield. Didn't say everyone had to agree with you, but at least you were being honest.
Lastly, because someone wishes for changes to fix balancing isnt asking for something to be easy or hard to do. Sometimes people are just trying to change little parts of the game to make in more fun and intersting. I do not want the game to be any easier... its easy enough.
Ranting is pointless btw... its just a giant waste of time.
Glom like your thoughts, thanks for the input. Many of your points are valid.
Robbin intersting points, and I agree with you, some intersting ideas out there.
What I was looking for though was a tweak to what we have, not something new. Something new is brought up for expanssions. Its hard enough for them to level the playing field let alone bring in a new ability.
The points were to make it more fun and intersting, not any easier.
hey take it easy alright guys, if you don't like an idea, say so, and voice why, calling people idiots, or calling ideas stupid aren't contributing to the cause. Any more inflammatory posts and I'm closing this thread as well as handing infractions and temp-bans.