Keeping up with the AOE tanks as a war

Respec to that UA build so you can do 10k TPS on boss fights? Hang out and prospect ore during trash. Pat them on the back when you get to the boss and tell them "daddy is taking over now, you can put your DPS sets back on". :p

The situation isn't too grim. A good Paladin or DK will grab a bunch off you but your aoe stun + Thunderclap + demo shout helps everyone. You can also chase down runners with your in combat charge and of course taunt any stragglers. Make sure the biggest or most annoying (read: interruptable/stunable) are your primary focus and work them over.

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Originally Posted by Merko

If you were tanking in my guild and you tossed vigilance on another tank to inflate your numbers "unless instructed to... i.e sarth3d" I would probably remove you from my raid. Put it on an aoe heavy dps class to protect them... not to try to show up other tanks. Those other tanks have the same responsibility as you, keep everyone alive.

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It's an idea, Merko: A thought given to facilitate discussion.

Was my idea best? Perhaps not, but this is a forum. Sharing ideas is the whole point.

Let me float another. I used this in the Plague Quarter last night:

Main Tank:
Pulls and Engages his Mobs.

Off Tank (Me):
Heroic Throw 1st mob marked for me.
Warbringer 2nd mob marked for me.
Separate my mobs from others and Tab Target my two mobs using the standard rotation.

Is this the best method? Again, perhaps it isn't. Hopefully however, it helps facilitate our topic: How does an Off-Tank pick up his assigned targets.

Yes, of course, Merko, I know what it's like to have my underwear ride up. One can say all sorts of silly things they don't really mean. Yes, yes, join our raid group any time you wish. We all like you.

I have this problem every now and then too.

If your running that many tanks, then chances are you have a nice amount of healers, if I was in your position, I would continue pulling mobs. Youre not useless in this situation, if you cant generate threat to keep up, then pull more by yourself.

Our jobs as tanks are not only meat shields, but too keep the pace in raids. Chances are, if youre bored, then theres a healer in your raid thats bored too. Keep yourself busy.

BTW, if your fellow tanks are getting hurt about you taunting a mob or two off them when you have nothing to do, then tell them that they arent the star of the show and that you are prot for a reason.

I like to make things fun by taunting off mobs off the other tanks (trash mind you) and me and the other tanks will have a taunt war/threat war, and we'll laugh about who can out taunt the other person.

As others have already pointed out, the important part as a warrior is burst aoe threat, not sustained. never try to tank all mobs against SERIOUS aoe. Stick with 3. Or, if you have very strong single target dps, maybe even 2.

We usually clear with 2 prot warrs, all ferals/dks put on dps gear for trash. The warr whose mobs died first on the pack we are currently clearing, will run ahead, mark a skull and pull. The most he will drop for aoe threat is a TC, no shockwave. He just sticks with 2 or 3 mobs, including a skull for single-target dps to bash on. By this time, the last mobs from the second tank will have died. The second tanks charges over, and immediately shockwaves, TCs. this way, all the mobs NOT tanked by tank one will turn to him, and shockwave is enough threat to let aoe classes go to work immediately, as long as the second tanks still tab targets his mobs. on pulls with more than 6 mobs, a dps might pull aggro from a single mob towards the end of the pull, but the mob will either die before reaching the dps, or we just taunt it back and start running towards the next pack while dps finish it off.

As a side note, I would vigilance other tanks even if I would not get it in return, the taunt refresh is just too useful when pulling a second pack while a shade just popped up in the middle of your healers...

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Originally Posted by Morgo

As others have already pointed out, the important part as a warrior is burst aoe threat, not sustained. never try to tank all mobs against SERIOUS aoe. Stick with 3. Or, if you have very strong single target dps, maybe even 2.

We usually clear with 2 prot warrs, all ferals/dks put on dps gear for trash. The warr whose mobs died first on the pack we are currently clearing, will run ahead, mark a skull and pull. The most he will drop for aoe threat is a TC, no shockwave. He just sticks with 2 or 3 mobs, including a skull for single-target dps to bash on. By this time, the last mobs from the second tank will have died. The second tanks charges over, and immediately shockwaves, TCs. this way, all the mobs NOT tanked by tank one will turn to him, and shockwave is enough threat to let aoe classes go to work immediately, as long as the second tanks still tab targets his mobs. on pulls with more than 6 mobs, a dps might pull aggro from a single mob towards the end of the pull, but the mob will either die before reaching the dps, or we just taunt it back and start running towards the next pack while dps finish it off.

As a side note, I would vigilance other tanks even if I would not get it in return, the taunt refresh is just too useful when pulling a second pack while a shade just popped up in the middle of your healers...

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** Hitting ^P to Print the Post ** Nice! Thanks.

In my short experiences tanking, Vig is absolutely the key. If its trash who cares if the other tank is generating slightly less threat? I see it as non-issue if the other tanks are competent enuf. Even on boss fights the MT should be so far ahead on aggro it wouldn't matter. The unlimited taunt is essential IMO.

Here's how my OT trash pulls go. I usually VIG the MT, then charge in on my target, SS (taunt if I don't get aggro), TC, taunt the 2nd or 3rd mob onto me while spamming ss/rev and then SW. I also tab like a mofo, spamming dev, conc, etc. This of course gets easier as the gear gets better. On trash I'm usually stacking a lot of SBV gear for huge SS crits etc.

you better be good at keeping aggro if you vigilance the MT, seems to me like that would only help DPS catch up and take aggro

on Naxx aoe pulls, the other tanks can't seem to pull aggro off me. I open with charge, thunderclap, 2 steps back, shockwave and that alone ensures that just about everything except the other tanks primary targets are on me for the duration of the aoe. Warr has the highest burst AoE ability in my opinion of all tanking classes, if the other tanks are pulling off you then the DPS is just taking it's time killing 'em.

Vigilance + MT = 10% of their threat to you and 3% off their damage.

Maybe cheating, but, eh?

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Originally Posted by holmedog

Vigilance + MT = 10% of their threat to you and 3% off their damage.

Maybe cheating, but, eh?

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Well if you are OT and you can out-threat the MT on trash then yea that would work, but if MT has more threat gen than you, taking 10% away from him isn't helping anything, instead of him haveing 100% threat and you being at 70% threat you have 80% and him 90% doesn't help at all with keeping aggro off DPS

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Originally Posted by Dubzil

Well if you are OT and you can out-threat the MT on trash then yea that would work, but if MT has more threat gen than you, taking 10% away from him isn't helping anything, instead of him haveing 100% threat and you being at 70% threat you have 80% and him 90% doesn't help at all with keeping aggro off DPS

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As always, results my varry, but in my raid parties, tanks always discuss setting vigilance on each other. Last time I used it was when tanking the Four Horseman (25 man). I didn't really need it, but it didn't hurt and it was nice to know I could re-taunt if needed.

After Baron and the other mobs died I set my vigilance back one of the DPSers. I think I set it on a Crazzed Lock. The saliva dripping from his mouth made him a good choice.

As always, the key is discussion. Are you having problems doing your job? Then discuss it with your Raid Mates and all of us. You'll find a solution that works for you. Execution, Knowledge and Positioning--Tank FTW, Baby!

Off topic observation :

Huge fonts wipes aggro.

Love the seed of suicide :P

We do it with a paladin and a warrior (myself) and pretty much leapfrog everything. Paladin pulls, aoe begins, I run over and pull the next pack, TC/Shockwave, drag into AoE, TC again. It's just a mess of mobs, pulling more, happy non-bored healers, DPSers aoeing their hearts out, and nice fast runs. If I run out of things to pull, I'll Devastate with my Sunder glyph in between TCs and Shockwaves.

Warrior sustained AoE threat might be a bit less, but all I usually need to hold it is one TC cooldown headstart. If I get two, there shouldn't be a problem.

I'm my guilds mt, and tbh I feel bad for paladins. they throw they're shield and those 3 targets stick but other than that they throw down consc and by that time if they pulled first I've charged in, I tc and all the mobs that their shield didnt' hit go on me and stay there 'cause of dmg shield and the follow-up shockwave. I've talked with our paladin tanks and they seem to agree.

Dk's aren't a big issue either, they do very good aoe dps but not more or less than me or the pally's they disease a mob and pestilance +dnd and they at least hold the mob that they diseased.

Warriors have, imo, very busty aoe threat. Our tc/shockwave combo puts out a huge ammount of aoe threat and as long as you aren't missing mobs (see glyph of thunder clap) you shouldn't have a huge deal, if a dps pulls on single target intervene taunt to fix the aggro. If the dps pulls threat on a lot of mobs intervene and shockwave so the mob's are stunned and the dps can do something to reset threat and healers can start spamming/hotting or aoe taunt. With the significantly lower cd on aoe taunt you can use it a lot more. I hardley ever have to use it though =/.

Other than than what I've said make sure your tc hits all, or at least the majority, of the targets. then once the mobs r close get shockwave to hit them all, it is really a matter of practice.

I don't have much to say on the vigilance discussion, but I usually put vigilance on a warlock or mage, most of the other classes have significantly less aoe threat due to tallents and therefor will give you less threat. Using vigilance to double taunt is not a habit I would suggest getting into, because if you are in a big aoe situation you are going to have a hard time targeting your second taunt target and are going to have 10 other mobs to deal with. learn to generate threat properly and you wont' have issues.

If you are just having issues holding threat off other tanks its not a bigg issue as long as they aren't dying. If its an issue holding threat off of dps tell them to hold back. waiting a few seconds for a 2nd thunderclap isnt' out of the question, and as long as your not dying and they are, they will change their habits.

I spam Cleave after TC and Shockwave. With Glyph of Cleave you can now hit 3 targets. I don't ever lose those 3 targets in 5 or 10 mans. Haven't noticed how this holds up in a 25 man. I havent tanked one in a while.

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Originally Posted by Dubzil

Well if you are OT and you can out-threat the MT on trash then yea that would work, but if MT has more threat gen than you, taking 10% away from him isn't helping anything, instead of him haveing 100% threat and you being at 70% threat you have 80% and him 90% doesn't help at all with keeping aggro off DPS

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I wasn't really being serious, there. I do vigi my off tanks (I am usually MT in our guild). But, I do it to give them the 3% off damage taken. We don't have problems keeping threat. I haven't seen a dps over 60% of my threat in a long, long time, and my OT's have far better AoE than me (I run w/ DKs or Palli's usually).

Putting vigilance on another tank??? Omg you gotta be kidding.

I compare myself to our MT paladin (me as a prot war) and I am usually a few hundred TPS behind. We are equally geared, he always chalks it up to paladin + undead mobs = higher TPS.

On bosses however, if I am not careful I will always catch/pass him on threat. On patchwork with a full ragebar I have to turn off vigilance and I still sit at 105% threat on omen.

I play a warrior and I am the MT for my guild. Since day 1 we have run our main 25man Naxx raids with 2 tanks, myself and a druid.

We AoE every trash pack in the zone and I'll usually pull double packs in all wings.

I'm a big fan of chain pulls and no-down time. I find that your raid members tend to pay attention more when you keep them engaged with constant pulls. Our healers have gotten used to it and no one cries about mana.

First thing is gear. I ditch my avoidance sets for threat in the form of hit/exp/blkVal when I can. Warriors have an enormous set of cool downs and I have no problem blowing them on trash packs with the changes to the refresh time.

I throw Vig on our highest AoE DPS player.
I use shield block value trinkets on a macro with shield block.
I am glyphed for AoE Tanking.

Typical Pull:

- I start every pull out with a charge + Thunder Clap.
- I follow that with a cleave and SS on whatever target I am on while i turn and step/jump behind the mobs to get them bunched up.
- On the next GCD I throw down a shockwave.
- From this point on I am always queuing cleave and rotating ss/rev/dev's on all mobs in the pack.
- When the stun runs out (depending if the pack can even be stunned or not) I throw up Shield Block.
- When Thunder Clap and Shockwave are up, I hit them.

Make sure your hunters/rogues are Misdirecting you when possible. Our druid usually peels off 1 or 2 mobs from me. Both tanks watch for aggro pulls. If someone does pull, range taunt it and focus your next few attacks on it to keep it on you.

What I usually do (and this helps a lot for ae) is have the druid pull off me when there are 1-2 mobs left while my healer and I run ahead to the next pack. I engage immediately and blow a cooldown on this pack. The idea is to generate all the threat you can while your raid finishes off the last couple of mobs and rushes to catch up to you. I repeat this throughout the instance until we get to a boss.

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Originally Posted by minrog

Respec to that UA build so you can do 10k TPS on boss fights? Hang out and prospect ore during trash. Pat them on the back when you get to the boss and tell them "daddy is taking over now, you can put your DPS sets back on". :p

The situation isn't too grim. A good Paladin or DK will grab a bunch off you but your aoe stun + Thunderclap + demo shout helps everyone. You can also chase down runners with your in combat charge and of course taunt any stragglers. Make sure the biggest or most annoying (read: interruptable/stunable) are your primary focus and work them over.

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haha lulz, so true, i de stuff and make scrolls during trash.

no but seriously, charge, tc, shockweave, demo, cleave, tc, cleave, then your reg rotation tabbing through mobs.

make sure vig is on your highest aoe melee dps or your aoe OT

i can hold trash like there is no other.

oh and make sure you are DW specced, tc/cleave crits give massive threat

oh and protip: don't chase down mobs! itll screw your positioning for SW & cleave, let your OTs chase em down.