Protection Offtank Build: Damage Theory

I don't think I've seen much threads talking about a dedicated Warrior Protection offtank build and rotation.

I'm suggesting this particular build: (4/15/52).

This is based on taking the Fury shout talents to increase the effectiveness of Battle/Commanding Shouts, as well as picking up Puncture on purpose as opposed to ignoring it altogether.

By "Damage Theory", I mean using primarily Devastates to proc Sword and Board and using Shield Slam when it's up--while being in Berserker Stance to reduce threat output. Pair this with gear that successfully satisfies the 540 Defense skill requirement and high SBV+Strength, and the Protection offtank can possibly have a respectable damage output, more so than the conventional Protection tank. TC talents and Shockwave are taken to help with AoE tanking.

Any thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Tristessa

I don't think I've seen much threads talking about a dedicated Warrior Protection offtank build and rotation.

I'm suggesting this particular build: (4/15/52).

This is based on taking the Fury shout talents to increase the effectiveness of Battle/Commanding Shouts, as well as picking up Puncture on purpose as opposed to ignoring it altogether.

By "Damage Theory", I mean using primarily Devastates to proc Sword and Board and using Shield Slam when it's up--while being in Berserker Stance to reduce threat output. Pair this with gear that successfully satisfies the 540 Defense skill requirement and high SBV+Strength, and the Protection offtank can possibly have a respectable damage output, more so than the conventional Protection tank. TC talents and Shockwave are taken to help with AoE tanking.

Any thoughts?

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This build makes my head hurt.
0/5 in Anticipation needs to be 5/5
4/5 in Deflection needs to be 5/5
Giving up 6% non-DR avoidance is just too much.

no imp revenge = bad (ok you're OT, but what happens when your getting hit) such as patchwork, thaddius (first phase). ect.
no anticipation = bad
4/5 deflection = bad
safeguard = bad
commanding presence gives you what ... 600hp i think? either way its less health then 5% dodge is in EH.
being in zerker makes you take 20% more damage = bad

honestly the best way to OT as a warrior is classic builds. if any one can get 5/5 imp demo its a dps warrior. OTs are the MT half the time, and you can become the MT it all hits the fan.

I'd ask what you mean by OT - do you mean

-- need to be second on threat while not getting hit
-- need to be second on threat while getting hit
-- getting hit (like as in gluth) with a taunt rotation
-- tanking adds

I'm confused cos in one breath you are talking about zerker stance to decrease threat but having 540defense, if you're not going to take damage you dont need 540 def gear.

There are a fair number of posts about deepwounds specs and some blogs/threads about prot dps as more and more of us more fully explore offtanking/dps'ing as a role.

Threat/Dmg + Safeguard (=support) seems to be meant for something like a 2nd tank in Naxx10 - 540 def for OT on patchwerk etc., aoe threat for trash and dps for fights that require only one tank.

seriously... if you want a hybrid spec go for arms and take the first talents in prot to increase your EH - deep prot talents are more about dealing damage when tanking. If you plan to be able to take the "hateful" damage in a raid and still deal good damage a dps spec + having prot gear = best

for anything else 15/5/51 is your best choice anyway

I guess I was a bit vague, here. Or maybe misleading in the thread title. I'm after an offtank build that supplies a significant boost to the raid while being able to perform tanking duties.

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Originally Posted by Shorty

I'd ask what you mean by OT - do you mean

-- need to be second on threat while not getting hit
-- need to be second on threat while getting hit
-- getting hit (like as in gluth) with a taunt rotation
-- tanking adds

I'm confused cos in one breath you are talking about zerker stance to decrease threat but having 540defense, if you're not going to take damage you dont need 540 def gear.

There are a fair number of posts about deepwounds specs and some blogs/threads about prot dps as more and more of us more fully explore offtanking/dps'ing as a role.

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Out of the four choices, "tanking adds" would be close to it. What I mean by "offtank" is being able to switch to a decent damage-dealing role while being decked in 540 Defense gear, also helping the MT and raid with Safeguard, Improved Demo Shout and Commanding Presence.

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Originally Posted by JackDanielz

Threat/Dmg + Safeguard (=support) seems to be meant for something like a 2nd tank in Naxx10 - 540 def for OT on patchwerk etc., aoe threat for trash and dps for fights that require only one tank.

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I should've mentioned that earlier. Yes, that's what I'm aiming for.

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Originally Posted by JackDanielz

seriously... if you want a hybrid spec go for arms and take the first talents in prot to increase your EH - deep prot talents are more about dealing damage when tanking. If you plan to be able to take the "hateful" damage in a raid and still deal good damage a dps spec + having prot gear = best

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You mean something like (4/15/52)?

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Originally Posted by JackDanielz

for anything else 15/5/51 is your best choice anyway

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Call me skeptical or silly (since I haven't tried it), but I hesitate to spec into Cider's DW spec "just because" it's his spec. No offense, but that's what's implied by many posts these days, that it's "the best choice." I think it depends on each tank's situation.

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Originally Posted by Tarkonn

This build makes my head hurt.
0/5 in Anticipation needs to be 5/5
4/5 in Deflection needs to be 5/5
Giving up 6% non-DR avoidance is just too much.

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Fair enough, (4/15/52) then.

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Originally Posted by Dreg

no imp revenge = bad (ok you're OT, but what happens when your getting hit) such as patchwork, thaddius (first phase). ect.

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Improved Revenge gives 20% more damage to Revenge. Gotta take the talents from somewhere; and if the idea is to offtank most of the time, then why not put it somewhere that can benefit the raid more?

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Originally Posted by Dreg

no anticipation = bad
4/5 deflection = bad

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Fair enough. Refer above.

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Originally Posted by Dreg

safeguard = bad

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Bad how? Reducing the MT's (or other raid member's) incoming damage by 30% every 30 seconds for a measly cost of 10 rage (two attacks with the proper Glyph) isn't too bad. Of course, this assumes:
1. The MT has much more threat than the rest of the raid, and
2. Offtanking duties are "light" during the encounter.

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Originally Posted by Dreg

commanding presence gives you what ... 600hp i think? either way its less health then 5% dodge is in EH.

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Please note: offtank--to support the raid.

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Originally Posted by Dreg

being in zerker makes you take 20% more damage = bad

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Please note again: offtank--to support the raid. What kind of retard would tank a bigass elite add in Berserker Stance anyway? I meant using Berserker Stance when there is nothing to tank.

Let's have a scenario in mind so I can explain what I have in mind, here. In an encounter, the MT picks up the boss. Mr. Offtank with the above (revised) build has 540 Defense gear with as much SBV possible. He charges the boss to gain some rage, goes into Berserker Stance and does Shield Slam, Devastates for Sword and Board to proc and supports the raid with Battle Shout/Commanding Shout. Intervenes once in a while to help with the MT's survivability.

An elite add appears. Mr. Offtank changes to Defensive Stance, Charges into the add and does a standard tanking rotation. When the add is down, he goes back to the boss again and does what he does in the previous paragraph.

Sorry for the wall of text. >_<

I'd still go with 15/5/51, it's really the best spec out there. Your raid should not be running into a problem with your MT dying, and so Imp Demo Shout and Commanding Presence will not yield huge benefits.

Impale and Deep Wounds will really boost your DPS significantly - that is the best way you can "buff" your raid. By outputting more damage and killing things faster, your entire raid will take less damage.

I would suggest going into Battle Stance rather than Berserker Stance when you are DPSing. Taking an extra 10% from raid-wide damage is not helpful, and the 3% crit you gain is negligible as Prot spec. With that said, Safeguard is a waste of points because you would have to stance dance to use it, which would wipe out all of your rage - resulting in lower DPS.

I would also value AttT over Cruelty. Critical Block and Incite gives you 5% crit per 1 talent point to the abilities you use the most. Going back and getting 1% crit for 1 point in Cruelty is not appealing. AttT will passively boost all of your attacks.

After seeing some of your responses, I'm understanding that you aren't talking about tanking, you're talking about an enhancement spec. If that's the case, it's just not something warriors should be dedicating themselves solely to. As a raid member, you are more valuable going deep into an arms/fury spec for DPS which also gives you the ability to get your improved shouts to buff your raid. Most of the 10-25 man raid content includes DPS races, and your +25% to your battle shout won't make up for the abysmal DPS you would be seeing from doing what you plan on doing (I'm wagering you'd get around 800-900dps).

I do commend you on thinking outside of the box with a new spec, but unfortunately when it comes to prot, you have 2 options:
15/5/51(Impale spec)
or
5/13 /53(Imp. Cleave spec) Note: This will do lower single target TPS than impale, but your AOE tanking is much easier.

First post and hello...I had to post on the safeguard thing.
Safeguard is a bad idea. I had the OT doing it to me once in naxx without my knowledge...it drops your total threat 10% with every use.....I was going crazy wondering why people started to catch me. I never had a problem before...I actually lost aggro on two fights...no biggie everything is tauntable...it did not help the healers. It did not "really" make me less squishy...it was a gimmick that seemed cool but in practice was a useless way to spec.
My advice, put the points somewhere else.

That happens with all uses of Intervene now, not just talented with Safeguard. Sad that it makes it useless as a tank-damage-reducing move. On the plus side, you can use it to tend to the aggro of people who are running hot. Combining the use of Intervene and Vigilance to stomp on high aggro folks could actually be handy on aggro-sensitive fights. (Although I think that Hand of Salvation is a bit more convenient, what with not charging off to the target and all. :)

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Call me skeptical or silly (since I haven't tried it), but I hesitate to spec into Cider's DW spec "just because" it's his spec. No offense, but that's what's implied by many posts these days, that it's "the best choice." I think it depends on each tank's situation.

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I've tried it before reading Cider's post (same for speccing into imp rend..)
and it's actually neither brand new (people thought about weird arms specs for tanking during beta) nor "brilliant" - it's number crunching.

DW will increase your overall dmg by ~10% and impale the dmg of most of your attacks by 10% * [crit chance], while the loss of 3 % crit is below 3% total dmg. So i guess it's "proven" to be superior to any other deep prot spec, as there are no comparable talents available. (for example I did 2,5k dps on patchwerk with really low exp/hit and a 143 dps weapon)

The reason why I would suggest arms is simply because you can spam revenge on a 1 sec cd (i'm pretty sure it still doesnt trigger the full gcd)
which provides (combined with the revenge glyph) a simple high threat/dmg rotation that works with ridiculous little rage.(also higher health,etc.)

And no i was not thinking of a (4/15/52) spec when i said "hybrid arms with first prot talents" ;D But I still think it's not necessary to do some hybrid thing because the talent trees are so close together (their effect) that they are all "hybrid" to some extent.

Edit: Safeguard IS useful for saving your tank... with everyone screaming " beat my tps! " it should be possible to use it when your MT is in danger - using it on cd to reduce overall dmg taken is ofc a bad idea, though

Hmm, thanks for the responses there guys--they really help! Sorry for a blanket response, gotta go to work in a few minutes. =p

The last three replies put together a few points that pretty much supports the DW Prot build. Bolstering your own damage output would potentially be more beneficial than spending 10 talent points on Shouts.

Looks like I'll have to try that DW Prot build out after all. XD

I've been thinking over the concept of dedicated OTing for a while, Tristessa, glad I'm not the only one. Currently I'm running a very general spec that allows me to do a bit of everything as needed - although my guild's MT is a protadin, and quite capable of tanking anything he likes, I get to MT on some stuff (Gluth notably springs to mind). Due to this I don't feel comfortable knocking points out of stuff like anticipation and deflection at the moment (though my avoidance on gear should be plenty, really).

I hope to dualspec into a "proper OTing build" when the option is available.. picking up imp demo shout certainly; our fury warrior has commanding presence atm so I don't think it necessary to stack on top of him when he keeps it up very consistently. At one point I was thinking about taking imp charge to help keep my rage up when not MTing (and not required to be joined at the hip to the MT).


A note on intervene/safeguard: I've had a problem with the aggro reduction only once, when our MT was on his DK tank alt and it was a naxx10 when I wasn't paying too much attention. Otherwise, if I check Omen before intervene, 90% of the time I'm safe to blow it every cd. Of course I've had other problems with intervening and general noob moments, but that's another story and not connected to threat/safeguard. Yes, it depends on the tank and the dps, and when a time comes when dpsers are actually starting to close in on us on normal fights, I may indeed spec out of it.

I find warrior the worst "ot" since if there's nothing that hits me, (any kind of adds), I lack rage, revange procs...and my dps is going down.

I think there shouldnt be the "offtank" player.
Just two Tanks capable of tanking all raid content and changing depends on encounter.

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Originally Posted by Steeltusk

I find warrior the worst "ot" since if there's nothing that hits me, (any kind of adds), I lack rage, revange procs...and my dps is going down.

I think there shouldnt be the "offtank" player.
Just two Tanks capable of tanking all raid content and changing depends on encounter.

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Cast vigilance on your MT, and pull adds off to the side as needed with taunt. This also reduces damage taken by him by 3%. Given I'm talking purely about trash pulls, the MT shouldn't have any issues with aggro as it is.

I find as a warrior this is the easiest way to OT mobs away from the melee(damn whirlwinding trash killing our rogues, lol).

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Originally Posted by Steeltusk

I find warrior the worst "ot" since if there's nothing that hits me, (any kind of adds), I lack rage, revange procs...and my dps is going down.

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The only tank capable of "real" offtanking is a DK. Paladins can not use holy shield and can run out of mana (although divine plea helps a lot) and a feral druid's Maul deals massive damage either and is a bigger rage loss due to their lower attackspeed (however, the +5 rage / crit is still really good).

So depending on how much dps you want to lose you can either choose to go for arms/fury + prot or prot with rage-efficiency talents and glyphs like Glyph of Heroic Strike (decrease of 3 rage on average)

you could also use a slow weapon for better devastate/rend/DW and then switch (via macro after an ability) to spam HS when you have enough rage.
The rage generation while OTing should be smooth enough to do so

If you look through the warrior prot talent tree things get pretty ugly when you have to try to do damage against a mob that is not trying to kill you or at least a "rage battery" trash mob nearby (difficult if your MT is a pally spamming consecrate, etc.. while you stand behind the mob trying to do some damage.)

- Revenge doesn't proc when not getting hit
- Glyph of revenge is less useful for free heroic strikes without revenge...
- Sword and Board procs fewer shield slams due to fewer revenge procs...
- Incite is less effective since you are rage starved and throwing fewer heroic strikes/TC/cleaves.
- Fewer heroic strikes due to lack of rage.
- Fewer ticks from "Damage Shield" procs which also = less Deep Wounds uptime.
- Fewer Enrages from Imp Def. Stance since you are not getting hit.
- Shield Spec - not helping to have shield block rating buffed if you're not getting hit.

.. seems like a warrior that is going to OT and is not running with a group that significantly overgears the content should be pushing to hit the "minimum required" level of tanking survivability and putting everything else from a spec and gear standpoint into maximizing damage in low rage situations where they are not relying on damage reactive procs. Doing the "napkin sketch" brainstorm on how exactly to pull this off right now for next week's Nax run in fact. :)

** Note that the above experience is based on having only run the Spider/Plague wings in Nax where having two full blown tanks isn't really necessary or practical with our overall low DPS where every point of damage counts. I believe once we have geared up a bit and progressed into the DK/Abomination wing the role of the OT as an actual tank versus a hybrid DPS/tank will become more important.

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Originally Posted by Biggensak

- Sword and Board procs fewer shield slams due to fewer revenge procs...

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You are going to use Dev instead of revenge which has the exact same chance to proc S&B.
I did a little testing on a target dummie and i could spam Dev and Shield slam and sometimes even use a HS :P - without puncture and the HS glyph.
I could not test it in raids yet but with +1k ap , +10 % crit, +20% haste and the usual debuffs (and the right talents/glyphs) I am pretty sure one could do a lot more.

Warrior OT on trash = Vigilance on MT/Taunt off whatever you want to fight. Works -great- on the whirlwinding trash in Naxx :p