# Essence of Gossamer vs Valor Medal

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• 12-10-2008, 06:14 AM
sprockets
Essence of Gossamer vs Valor Medal
Im having a problem deciding between avoidance and health pool.

Currently with essence of gossamer im at 29430 unbuffed with 21.56% dodge

My question is with this much health is it worth it to go to 28200~ with 23.21% dodge
• 12-10-2008, 06:40 AM
Meeks
I would go with the Valor Medal no question in that situation. In my opinion your health is way to high in relation to your avoidance. I keep the gossamer around for situation where max health is useful but I rarely use it.
• 12-10-2008, 10:39 AM
Kazeyonoma
Well, there's some math to be done here, cuz keep in mind that 29430 and 28200 health neither suffer from diminishing returns where as your dodge.. will.

Using Satrina's formula for dodge for a warrior:

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/4...avoidance.html

http://evilempireguild.org/guides/im...e.diminish.jpg

we can plug in your two values of character sheet (before DR) dodge and figure out how much real dodge you have (post DR).

21.56% scenario:
1) Calculate your overall avoidance: given: 21.56%
2) Calculate k/A: 0.956/(21.56) = .04434
3) Calculate 1/c + k/A: 0.01135 + .04434 = .05569
4) The result from step 3 is 1/Ad, so now invert it: 1/0.05569 = 17.96% Dodge. This is Ad, the diminished amount of dodge actually gained

now lets do it with the 23.21% dodge:
1) Calculate your overall avoidance: given: 23.21%
2) Calculate k/A: 0.956/(23.21) = .04119
3) Calculate 1/c + k/A: 0.01135 + .04119 = .05254
4) The result from step 3 is 1/Ad, so now invert it: 1/0.05254 = 19.033% Dodge. This is Ad, the diminished amount of dodge actually gained

so after DR:

You're trading 1230 health for 1.073% dodge.

Okay, so all this math basically says... i'd agree with Meeks, more avoidance for your healthpool is good. 29430 unbuffed health is INSANE O_o, lol.
• 12-10-2008, 11:28 AM
Meeks
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma

so after DR:

You're trading 1230 health for 1.073% dodge.

Okay, so all this math basically says... i'd agree with Meeks, more avoidance for your healthpool is good. 29430 unbuffed health is INSANE O_o, lol.

On top of the 111 stam vs 1.073% avoidance is the great use effect on the Valor trinket compared to the proc on the Gossamer.
• 12-10-2008, 11:29 AM
Kazeyonoma
what doth the valor trinket dooeth? ;x
• 12-10-2008, 11:31 AM
Meeks
• 12-10-2008, 11:33 AM
Kazeyonoma
oh hell yea, new moroes trinket.
• 12-10-2008, 11:39 AM
merckx
The Valor Medal is a disgrace to the Pocketwatch legacy.
Since avoidance is more valuable the more of it you have, and because tanks have less avoidance now than in BC and because avoidance has diminishing returns, for the Valor Medal to be 'the new pocketwatch', it would need to give notably more dodge on use than the pocketwatch did back in the day. Instead it gives only half as much (albeit for twice as long).
If you really need 7% dodge on demand, just use the old pocketwatch. The passive dodge is nice on the valor medal is nice, but nobody wore the pocketwatch because it had nice passive stats, it was used because it had an incredible active stat.
• 12-10-2008, 11:43 AM
Meeks
Quote:

Originally Posted by merckx
If you really need 7% dodge on demand, just use the old pocketwatch.

I am confused to why I would ever consider wearing the pocket watch over the valor medal.

Valor medal has over twice as much passive dodge and the on use has more dodge for twice as long. Percent might be different then pocket watch was at 70 but we are not at 70 anymore.
• 12-10-2008, 11:46 AM
RPZip
Quote:

Originally Posted by Meeks
I am confused to why I would ever consider wearing the pocket watch over the valor medal.

Valor medal has more passive dodge and the on use has more dodge for twice as long. Percent might be different then pocket watch was at 70 but we are not at 70 anymore.

It makes more sense if you slam your head into the desk twice, then think about it.
• 12-10-2008, 11:53 AM
merckx
I am not really suggesting wearing the Pocketwatch - it was more to illustrate the point. Nobody wore the pocketwatch because it had passive dodge, that was a nice bonus, but people used the pocketwatch because it had an incredibly powerful, fight changing use effect.

The Valor Medal is often thought of/referred to as the 'new' pocketwatch. But the comparison is bad because, as I mentioned, to overcome the low overall avoidance and diminishing returns, the 'new' pocketwatch would need to give more % dodge than the old one in order to be as effective. Instead the 'new' one only gives half as much.

So, if you want to wear a trinket with a powerful 'use' effect like the old pocketwatch, the valor medal ain't it. If you run across a fight where you need to get a bunch of dodge on demand, the old pocketwatch is only 0.5% less effective than the 'new pocketwatch' and doesn't cost 40 badges.

The valor medal is clearly better if you are looking at the passive effects.
• 12-10-2008, 12:05 PM
Meeks
Quote:

Originally Posted by merckx
I am not really suggesting wearing the Pocketwatch - it was more to illustrate the point. Nobody wore the pocketwatch because it had passive dodge, that was a nice bonus, but people used the pocketwatch because it had an incredibly powerful, fight changing use effect.

The Valor Medal is often thought of/referred to as the 'new' pocketwatch. But the comparison is bad because, as I mentioned, to overcome the low overall avoidance and diminishing returns, the 'new' pocketwatch would need to give more % dodge than the old one in order to be as effective. Instead the 'new' one only gives half as much.

So, if you want to wear a trinket with a powerful 'use' effect like the old pocketwatch, the valor medal ain't it. If you run across a fight where you need to get a bunch of dodge on demand, the old pocketwatch is only 0.5% less effective than the 'new pocketwatch' and doesn't cost 40 badges.

As of now there are no trinkets with an effect equivalent to the old pocket watch. In fact unless I missing something the valor trinket has the strongest avoidance use in game atm. If you are looking for an avoidance trinket valor is your best choice. May not be as effective for avoiding a short term enrage type situation but it is still a very good trinket.

Quote:

The valor medal is clearly better if you are looking at the passive effects.
And on use. It is better all around.(at lvl 80)
• 12-10-2008, 12:26 PM
Kazeyonoma
I hope you're not looking at the % gained from the use @70 and comparing that to the % gained from the use @80 on valor, and saying the moroes is better because it's not...
• 12-10-2008, 01:14 PM
merckx
I was on my way out to lunch and wasn't really clear on the message I was trying to get across so bear with me while I give it another go.

I am only taking issue with the idea that the valor medal is 'the new pocketwatch'. The pocketwatch was an amazing trinket because it gave 16% dodge on demand, not because it had passive dodge on it which is why I am glossing over the passive dodge on the valor medal.

If you want to call something 'the new pocketwatch' it has to have a 'use effect' that rivals the old one. Instead the valor medal gives half as much dodge on demand. It is so far off from being what the pocketwatch was at 70 that it is, in fact, only marginally better than the pocketwatch is at 80 (335 rating vs 300 rating).

Thats not to say it is a bad trinket, just that it is nowhere near as good as the pocketwatch was and if you pick it up hoping it will be a 'new pocketwatch' you will be sorely disappointed. If you want to find the new pocketwatch - something with a powerful use effect - Defender's Code is the closest thing out there.
• 12-10-2008, 02:01 PM
uruloki
what he means is..... at 70, moroes gives 15% dodge on use. at 80, valor gives little over 8%. hes saying (on the context where each one was used) moroes was much much better.
• 12-10-2008, 02:24 PM
clavarnway
We get what he's saying. It's foolish :P 15% dodge on-use is a thing of the past. Valor Medal is really good, stop living in the past mang!
• 12-10-2008, 03:44 PM
Spazlord
It's the best avoidance trinket available - and it was my 3rd heroism emblem purchase after the neck and gloves. I don't have much in the way of avoidance, so every little bit counts.

There's not an awful lot to buy with heroism emblems anyway, it might not be your first purchase, but you may as well pick it up eventually!
• 12-10-2008, 04:15 PM
veneretio
Quote:

Originally Posted by merckx
I am only taking issue with the idea that the valor medal is 'the new pocketwatch'. The pocketwatch was an amazing trinket because it gave 16% dodge on demand, not because it had passive dodge on it which is why I am glossing over the passive dodge on the valor medal.

If you want to call something 'the new pocketwatch' it has to have a 'use effect' that rivals the old one. Instead the valor medal gives half as much dodge on demand.

You're the only one calling it the new pocketwatch in this thread. I don't really understand why you're arguing with yourself just b/c it loosely applies to the topic. That being said, it is the new pocketwatch whether you like it or not. Just because it's not completely broken like the pocketwatch doesn't change that it's literally the same thing with updated AND balanced stats.

Valor Medal has a great passive effect and a strong use effect, thus I would also recommend using it over the Blue 111 Stamina trinket given your situation sprockets.
• 12-10-2008, 06:16 PM
Dots
Quote:

Originally Posted by veneretio
You're the only one calling it the new pocketwatch in this thread.

Actually he wasn't the first one to say that.

Anyway, as merckx already explained, gearing for avoidance is only good once you reach high numbers and current gear doesn't support that. 111 stamina definitely beats 84 dodge rating even with the fancy click, would use that even way past 30k unbuffed HP.
• 12-10-2008, 07:13 PM
Elyvern
Uhh....you can use both? They are my new "pocket watch" (ah drat, that word pops up again!) and "commendation" set up. I also felt that the original pocket watch was just too good. I know of tanks that use it into SWP because of bad luck with RNG and such. A Kara-level item shouldn't have no parallels until late T6.
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