As Sevaar said, MD did not require us to sacrifice a talent point. Wrath may change my mind, but as it stands vigilance is just a nice way for blizzard assist me in saving talent points.
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As Sevaar said, MD did not require us to sacrifice a talent point. Wrath may change my mind, but as it stands vigilance is just a nice way for blizzard assist me in saving talent points.
I was just talking to my roommate and it's like this: if you have to invent ways and situations to make the talent useful, you never wanted it in the first place.
whether something is "useful" is in the eye of the beholder. That's why we are only given a limited amount of talent points and can't spec 51/51/51. Don't like improved revenge stun? don't get it. Don't like vigilance? don't get it.
It would be prudent to think of this in the context of Ghostcrawler's remarks about threat and how it may scale towards level 80. Currently, its a point I don't feel like sparing something else for, personally, but then, I am not taking any avoidance talents right now either. (the 'go on and hit me, you wuss' approach) Your mileage may vary.
I don't know if its relevant or not at level 70 anywhere along the progression chain. At T5ish gear, DPS safely down the Omen from me without it. But I suspect it may become more valuable at higher levels and with more relevant and tuned content. Enough to make it viable and worth spending a point on? Maybe.....
If your DPS can go all out and doesn't have to hold back, then yeah, vigilance is less than amazing. If your DPS DOES have to hold back, then I'm pretty sure there aren't very many better ways to spend a single talent point to up your threat and consequently raid DPS.
GC has stated that current tanking is not a good benchmark for end-game raiding. And for that matter, Naxx is supposed to be very introductory. So in terms of Vigilance's usefulness now, it's a little limited but there are a couple situations:
1. Any fight involving AOE damage to the raid. EX: Felmyst, if you are semi-proactive, give a low-hp member of the raid 3% less damage taken. If you want to be super active, toss it on the encapsulated person. This will vastly help healers keep up.
2. Threat-sensitive fights. EX: KJ can be nuts on threat, now and before the nerf. I simply put this on our arms warrior and its the only way to stay ahead of him on threat.
3. Mutli-tank fights. EX: Council, Illidan flame tanks, Maulgar to name a few. Threat transfer isn't a big deal as long as dps have brains and the 3% can make all the difference in the world between a dead tank and an alive tank.
I'm sure there will be many more encounters in Wrath, so don't abandon all hope for it yet, although I would like to see it buffed to 5% damage cause buffs are good XD.
I was really unimpressed with Vigilance, and have posted here a fair amount about it.
Then I saw it in action.
I wound up playing as arms for the first week or 3.0. Our ret pally and I were both occasionally threat capped. (sudden death execute procs doing 1.25% threat can get exciting really, really quick) I took it to tank this week, and for one point, you can always find some sort of use for it. Even when you don't need the threat, there's always someone who can take less damage.
I think it's a pretty nicely designed talent now that I've seen it from both sides. It's not required, it won't make, or break an encounter, but it offers good value as a choice. Getting away from 'talents' that aren't really choices at all, and offering a variety of choices make it more interesting, at least to me.
Vigilance is a good thing
There's a difference between forgiving in that we'll be stressed rotating shouts and thunderclaps into a rotation and it not being an issue for DPS.Quote:
Blizzard clearly stated how threat will be a lot more forgiving in the future. While I haven't played in the beta and don't know how our threat will scale in Live Level 80 Instances/Raids, I do expect threat to become a little bit more challenging than the (excuse my choice of words) facerollfest we see now.
I guess the thing for me that ultimately decides this is, is there a single talent point anywhere else in our trees that gives us as much bang for buck as that one point there? You can pick up Impale, 3/3 Att, 3/5 Cruelty, Shockwave and Devastate all in one build (at 80. At 70 you can get 5/5 cruelty, 3/3 Att, SW, Dev) and still get Vigilance. It isn't about it being necessary at this point so much as it is for good value.
I like the talent a lot. The only criticism I'd have is that there should be a bit more 'feedback' from it... Some kind of casting animation would be good, and some built-in way of seeing it fall off the target - perhaps a buff on 'my' end too.
I'm not questioning it's value as our 31-point protection talent and as soon as threat is becomming an issue I' d obviously drop 1-2 points in Cruelty to get it. If placed correctly it will easily be one of our strongest tps increases per talent point even or especially at level 80.
This doesn't change my issue with this particular threat mechanic tho. As I said before, MD used to be a very unique and fairly limited tool. Now with WotLK we already have 3 (excluding Healingspells) abilities capable of redirecting someone elses threat onto us. If this trend keeps up (looking at all the positive feedback Vigilance gets I assume it's very likely) it will eventually shift the threat game almost completly out of our hand and spread it throughout our DPSers.
Yes, a more forgiving threat game is welcome and allows us to really utilize all of our abilities/toys instead of strictly sticking to Rev, SS, Deva, HS and the occasional headbut to the table whenever we miss a global cooldown.
But look at Vigilances threat mechanic like this:
If a DPSer would gain a certain percentage of a Shamans (or any other class capable of buffing) damage added (not transfered) to their own whenever they are affected by a Windfury or Wrath of Air Totem, instead of simply receiving a buff that allowed them to draw more damage out of their own abilities, it would basically be the same mechanic for Damage as Vigilance is for threat.
And yes, this bothers me :rolleyes:
I've posted at length about this threat, and to summarize my general concept, I may two main uses for this ability, both very useful.
The damage reduction, anyone who has done any trolling here will understand just how powerful 3% damage reduction is, especially on a tank.
The 2nd being the 10% threat transfer. Single target boss fights? Junk.
Geared warlock spamming SoC on Hyjal trash? Invaluable.
GG Blizzard, and TY for Vigilance.
Here's my problem with this example: a damage siphon is not the same as a threat siphon. With the DPSer's example, you're not changing anything by redirecting one raid member's damage to another raid member. Overall Raid DPS is the same, and it doesn't really matter who's doing the damage at the end. In this example, the DPSer is taking someone else's damage for no reason. The other DPSer is probably annoyed that their damage is going somewhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevaar
In the threat example, though, it does change the game. As a tank your job is to hold the mob's aggro and take the hits. Vigilance lets you do that job better. A DPSer doesn't care if you take their threat, because threat is a bad thing for them. If anything, they're glad you're taking it, and you're glad to have it. By redirecting their threat to you, you're both able to do your jobs better. This is not the case with the DPS scenario.
Vigilance is especially potent for AOE threat. Thunderclap, Shockwave, and Damage shield give Warriors a large AOE threat boost, but it is still not enough to keep seeds from pulling threat alone. Vigilance helps keep those mobs on you longer, and that's a good thing. It buffs your threat a hell of a lot more than one point in cruelty, or puncture, or armed to the teeth. Those talents increase your DPS, too, but let's not forget the main role of tanking. It may be true that the single-target threat game is pretty easy right now, but you're not always tanking single targets, and the situational uses for Vigilance are, in my opinion, well worth the single point investment.
I though that part made it pretty clear that I didn't mean to compare Vigilance to a Damage siphon.Quote:
...damage added (not transfered)...
I apreciate your response tho
Well if it's added and not transferred, then it doesn't work at all like Vigilance does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevaar
Then why give us the option..?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma
Because it's useful to authors who color guide segments according to upcoming patches, such as Berginyon using a shade of purple on 2.3 and 2.4 information in advance of their release.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krashtork
Nope, it's exactly the same. Yes I agree that it doesnt "siphon" something that is bad for one person to another person that greatly benefits from the siphoned product. But it still is the same in that one player gains something that is good for him without doing anything after the initial buffing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prunetracy
You, as the tank with Vigilance, have zero influence on the threat generated by your own ability.
love it, Vigilance is one of my favorite talents.
Isn't that how all buffs work? I cast battle shout, I gain something good for me without doing anything after the initial buffing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevaar
That's technically true, I guess, but I don't see why it's a problem.Quote:
You, as the tank with Vigilance, have zero influence on the threat generated by your own ability.
What I'm gathering from you is that you don't mind that Vigilance gives you extra threat, and you don't mind that Vigilance lowers someone else's threat. What seems to bother you is that someone else is producing the extra threat for you, and I don't see why that's a problem at all.
To use the DPSer example, suppose a shaman could cast a buff on a group member that increased their haste by 5% and added lightning damage to their attacks, but the lightning damage counted toward the shaman's damage output. Would that be a bad ability for the shaman to use? Certainly not, the shaman and the other player both get extra damage. Were I a shaman, I would think that ability is pretty badass and I'd definitely take the point and use it every time I could.
Yeah, the player you cast it on has to be competent as well, but as the shaman, you get to pick who to put it on.
Vigilance is a buff for the casting tank and the raid member it is cast on. Both players are better off for it, and it helps both players to do their job better. Yes, it works differently than other buffs work, but what I don't understand is why you think that's a bad thing.