[Wartorn]

Deleted for stupidity.

[Satrina]

Source: Felonys With the new devastate change do you think it's worth it ? Personally I don't think so and I'd like input on this topic.

It increases the threat per rage efficiency of your devastates by 33% - how could you not think it's worth it?

[Anansi™]

Did the threat rotation actually change?

Still SS, Rev (if up), Dev, Dev and repeat. Unless for some strange reason Rev didn't come up in that rotation use another Dev. The only thing it did was remove the need for Sunder for an initial five before switching to dev, but is relatively the same since Dev now serves the same purpose on target being attacked.

[Sangi]

Source: Ciderhelm Scenario You have 5+ Devastate, 2x Shield Slam and 2x Revenge. Organize these to provide maximum Threat output, keeping in mind that: Each of the first 5 Devastates will provide a Sunder Armor debuff and increase the damage of Shield Slam and Revenge; Normal attacks will see a damage increase withthe Sunder Armor debuff if Devastates are applied sooner; Devastate is assumed to be 9 rage, Shield Slam is assumed to be 17 rage, and Revenge is assumed to be 2 rage; Devastate has significantly increased Threat for the first five applications. Is initial threat increased by prioritizing Devastate over other abilities?

Ok I re-ran things given the information above. My own assumtions are below.

• You always have enough rage to perform an ability.
• All abilities are assumed to be hits. No misses, parries, dodges, or crits.
• Damage for abilites is increased as the number of sunders increase.
• A single white attack [i]follows[i] each ability. As most tanks have a 1.6 weapon this is close enough to the GCD to warrant 1 per. If the special ability applies a sunder the white attack will use the new sunder amount. The first devestate will have its white attack at one sunder.
• Innate threat values are taken from Evil Empire's Guide here
• No sunder and max sunder damage values have been done from my own observations while playing. These are highly subjective as I was unable to find any notes about the armor values of mobs to perform a more detailed calculation. The damage between 0 and 5 sunders is increased linearly.
• There must be at least three moves between Shield Slam and 2 moves between Revenges to accommodate cool downs. I know that you would lose a half a second with only three cool downs between revenge. A half second allowed some other rotations to be checked.

The spread sheet detail can be found here.
The first sheet is my assumptions. Things in blue are to be changed.
The second sheet is my calculations.

I will summarize the results here:

The best full rotation is Dev, Dev, Dev, SS, Rev, Dev, Dev, SS, Rev. This generates 8582 threat before stance and talent modifiers at approx 715 TPS. This is 12443 threat and 1036 TPS after modifiers.

The worst stating rotation is SS, Rev, Dev, Dev, SS, Rev, Dev, Dev, Dev. This generates 7884 threat at 657 before mods. After mods it is 11432 threat at 952 TPS.

The best 5 ability rotation for a quick burst of threat is SS, Dev, Dev, Dev, SS. This produces 4453 threat in 6 seconds or about 742 TPS before mods. Or 6457 threat and 1075 TPS after mods.

The best 2 ability rotation for quick burst of threat is Dev, SS. This generates 1717 unadjusted threat compared to SS, Rev which produces 1607 unadjusted threat.

Conclusions:
It appears that if you are doing SS and Rev as a pair it does not matter which goes first. This is because their side effects have no effect on the threat generated by other abilities and white damage.

From looking at the data (and common sense) the sunders from devastate directly increase the threat generated by the other abilities to such an extent that it would be wise to use devastates first where snap aggro isn't needed.

A SS only generates 162 more base threat than a Devastate. This small difference may actually make it worthwhile to open with the devestate cycle instead of a SS. This is because in most cases when you are going to get something pulled off you at the opener it is due to a lucky crit and at that point even SS won't help much. However this difference will widen as your shield slam increases.

As I am only in Heroic and Kara gear I recommend that folks grab the spreadsheet and plug their own numbers into the blue area and see how the rotations compare with their gear in there. I suspect that, as the only major value that would change would be white damage and shield slam, that the rotations would maintain the same relative positions. In fact the values would be better as the difference between a SS with no sunders and more sunders would be greater. However the benefits of using SS for snap aggro would be too great to start with a devastate for a single hit.

[Wartorn]

Source: Sangi The best full rotation is Dev, Dev, Dev, SS, Rev, Dev, Dev, SS, Rev. This generates 8582 threat before stance and talent modifiers at approx 715 TPS. This is 12443 threat and 1036 TPS after modifiers.

Don't you lose some time waiting for SS to cooldown?

Edit : I'm dumb...stupid sleepless nights.

[Leaf]

Good stuff every1 just got one Question...


Q : what about Heroic strike? keep using it between attacks like normal or just ignore it 100%? :s

maybe i missd the answer somewhere, and im sorry for that.

[Silenus]

Heroic should always be used whenever you have excess rage. Since it is not on the global cooldown it will not affect the ability rotations being discussed here. However...the threat values being discussed here are only for the GCD abilities being used and not counting any potential heroic strikes that might be woven in.

[Ciderhelm]

I want independent verification of Sangi's post if anyone would like to run the math.

[Anansi™]

I'm probably missing it somewhere, but I was sustaining 950ish TPS using SS, Rev,Dev,Dev and Heroic Strike when rage allowed and did a few runs with Windfury and pushed it to around 1000+ sustained with extremely often streaks of 1200 TPS.

I tried opening with Dev, Dev, Dev, SS, Rev but fell to around 750ish TPS.

Is there an add-on I can track this in a format I can generate reports? will SWS do it?

[robkid]

Actually just registered specifically to ask this question, although I've already greatly benefited from reading the guides and posts here, so thanks everyone.

As someone still very new to tanking concepts (haven't event gotten my warrior to 70 yet), I've been following threads like this very closely to understand more about how to best use the skills. One thing I've always wondered about rotations is how folks go about getting the necessary rage to start the cycles. For opening with SS, you'd need 17 rage fully talented, right? If you're opening with SS in a multi-mob pull, where I'm assuming you'd want TC as soon as possible as well, you're looking at an initial need of around 30 rage fully talented if I remember everything right.

Where does this rage come from? Seems it would have to be a combination of some of the following (as I'm not aware of any other ways to get rage, unless my brain is finally shutting down):

* Bloodrage
* White damage
* Incoming damage
* Charge
* Rage pot

Rage pots would seem to be too expensive to use all the time, but maybe useful on specific pulls. Charge would seem to too often put you in an awkward situation (aside from soloing, where I've found it very useful).

Thus, I'm left to consider the first three, which really boils down to the question of "To Bloodrage or not to Bloodrage?" How often do folks use Bloodrage and how often do you just wait for the rage to be generated due to hits from initial aggro and your own damage? So far I haven't used Bloodrage much, but I've also been soloing so holding aggro isn't a concern. Curious to know more before I start getting into more instances.

Edit: Realized after I posted that Charge wouldn't be a terribly good option anyway, as you'd only be able to carry over 10 rage for SS unless you've talented Tactical Mastery. Guess that just emphasizes my last question anyway.

[Nuberino]

In response to Robs question, I use bloodrage at the beginning of every pull. I have improved bloodrage which ensures that by the time the mob reaches me I can open up with a shield slam (I haven't yet really tested changing my initial rotation). With a minute cooldown on bloodrage, it should be available to you on every pull that you need it (if you are killing pulls and pulling again < 1 min, you out gear the mobs and don't need it).

Never charge unless you are absolutely sure that you will not get adds or positioning doesn't matter. Unless of course you totally outgear the instance.

I have never used rage potions because they are on the same cooldown as ironshield/stoneshield pots. Though I recently requested (and received) my old Brutal Hauberk be restored in order to click before a threat sensitive boss pull.

[Nilya]

robkid - Charge is indeed not the best way to open up a pull most of the time because if you lack TM, you will not have the rage for Shield Slam. What I like Charge for is for closing the distance to a pack of mobs that contains casters that I'd rather not wait an extra few seconds to come around a corner from a LOS pull. What I'll do with the excess rage is Thunderclap before switching stances, because it really doesn't seem to do much less threat than in Defensive Stance, and then I switch to Defensive and start with Revenge, because it's highly likely to be lit up with a pack of mobs swinging at me.

I find Charge especially useful on packs of mobs like the Broken/Naga in Heroic Slave Pens/Underbog.

[robkid]

Thanks for the feedback. I suspected that was the case, but thought it best to confirm so I can look like as little of a noob as possible. Guess I'll need to start playing with Bloodrage so I'm used to it when the time comes.

[Razmo]

Open with shieldslam and go devistate all the way with ofc shield blocks and revenge

trash: SS > Dev x 5 (revenge if possible)
Boss: SS > SB > Revenge > Dev

[furzanussen]

Just a Question that came to my mind.

After putting up 5 SA with devastate, isnt heroic strike the much better ability ?
Usually my priority is SS,rev and HS, adding dev when my rage is high.

HS innate > dev innate, HS damage > dev damage = HS > dev (after 5 SA of course)

Or am I totally wrong?

[Fame]

Heroic Strike is a white attack (yields rage) that got converted into a yellow (does not yield rage) with damage/threat added on top of it. You can use both if you have a ton of rage (especialy since HS dont put you on GC) however if you are lacking rage you do not want to be using HS.

[Clootie]

I found that i was putting out much more TPS if i spammed devastate along with sunder... my rotation was something like Dev>Dev>SS>Rev>Constant spamming of Dev/Sunder (id get off like 3 devs then a sunder would hit it was more random cause i wouldnt hit them at the same exact time, and i mash those two keys extremely fast) while SS and rev were on cooldown also keeping shieldblock up... I don't know exactly why it seemed to work better but i was upwards of 100tps higher than if i just used dev alone. I have sunder set to a mouse key, and dev set to a number hotkey... would also use SS and rev whenever they were up after the initial "short" rotation. try spamming sunder and dev at the same time in between your rotations and lemme know what you guys think. It's a very unorganized rotation but it works for me, and until it stops working ima keep using it. I toss an HS in there if i have a constant 40 or so rage. If i seem to be missing a lot of my attacks on certain mobs ill Throw SS in earlier, or ill use rev before SS.

[Razmo]

Source: furzanussen Just a Question that came to my mind. After putting up 5 SA with devastate, isnt heroic strike the much better ability ? Usually my priority is SS,rev and HS, adding dev when my rage is high. HS innate > dev innate, HS damage > dev damage = HS > dev (after 5 SA of course) Or am I totally wrong?

good point, i'm testing hs out some more aswell. After 5 dev the threat from dev is lower then at the building up part. HS seems nice but I still use dev cuz of old habbits :P. Anyway when tanking 2 mobs I go Cleave all the way after full sunders.

[dorfwawwior]

I'm new here, and here's my 2 cents.

Depends what you are tanking really. Trash mobs are so varied. Melee/Casters/etc and all hit you, depending on your gear, at different values.

It's hard to judge what is a best rotation cause you never know what kind of rage gen you will be getting from weapon swing/dmg taken.

It also depends on your gearing. I'm sure all of us have different sets for trash and bosses, the bane of a warrior, lugging around so much gear.

Expertise is now a very desired threat tank stat to get. Balancing it with hit can signifcantly boost your TPS.

I think this post should be reworded to, how would you best spend 100 rage for the most threat given say a Mallet of the Tides, Aldori, 450bv, 700AP, 5% hit and 5% reduced dodge/parry from expertise, on a lvl 70 mob that doesnt attack you back. All your attacks/abilities will land. no misses, no dodges, no parries. Answer me this question! hehe

[Kream]

Source: Sangi Ok Im bored on lunch I'll play with the math. I will add up a few rotations and see what we get. I will assume my stats which is a shield slam damage of 400, base devastate weapon damage of 100, a normal hit for 200 and a revenge for 300. Rage costs assumed at SS of 17, Dev at 9, SA at 9, Rev at 2 and HS at 12. Known threat values: Devastate ___________________________ 119/134/148/162/176 (see below) Heroic Strike _______________________ 196 Revenge _____________________________ 200 Shield Slam _________________________ 307 Sunder Armor ________________________ 301 Calculated threat before talents Devestate ___________________________ 520/570/614/663/714 Heroic Strike _______________________ 396 Revenge _____________________________ 500 Shield Slam _________________________ 707 Sunder Armor ________________________ 301 Old rotations SS, Rev, SA, SA, 4 normal attacks = 707 + 500 + 301 + 301 + (4 * 200) = 2609 @ 37 rage in 6 seconds SS, Rev, SA, SA, HS, 3 normal attacks = 707 + 500 + 301 + 301 + 396 + (3 * 200) = 2805 @ 49 rage in 6 seconds New Rotations SS, Rev, Dev, Dev, 4 normal attacks = 707 + 500 + 520 + 570 + (4 * 200) = 3009 @ 37 rage in 6 seconds SS, Dev, Dev, Dev, 4 normal attacks = 707 + 520 + 570 + 614 + (4 * 200) = 3211 @ 44 rage in 6 seconds Dev, Dev, Dev, Dev 4 normal attacks = 520 + 570 + 614 + 663 + (4 * 200) = 2367 @ 36 rage in 6 seconds So the winner looks to be SS 3xDev but is pretty expensive ragewise. Followed by good ole SS, Rev, 2x Dev. 4x Dev looks to be much lower threatwise. But again this is all theory crafting.

Your math seems to be a little off.
I get SS/3xDev at 3097 and 4xDev at 3167

1) SS/Rev/Dev/Dev/SS/Rev/Dev/Dev
2) SS/Dev/Dev/Dev/SS/Dev/Dev/Rev
3) Dev/Dev/Dev/Dev/Dev/SS/Rev/Dev
4) SS/Dev/Dev/Dev/Dev/Dev/SS/Rev

Tracking out to 8 GCDs (enough time for each to reach the standard rotation)
GCD 1 (Threat/Rage Spent)
1) 907/17 (start rotation)
2) 907/17
3) 720/9
4) 907/17

GCD 2
1) 1607/19
2) 1627/26
3) 1490/18
4) 1627/26

GCD 3
1) 2327/28
2) 2397/35
3) 2304/27
4) 2397/35

GCD 4
1) 3097/37
2) 3211/44
3) 3167/36
4) 3211/44

GCD 5
1) 4004/54
2) 4118/61
3) 4081/45
4) 4074/53

GCD 6
1) 4704/56
2) 4981/70
3) 4988/62 (start rotation/5 sunders up)
4) 4988/62

GCD 7
1) 5518/65
2) 5895/79
3) 5688/64
4) 5895/79 (start rotation/5 sunders up)

GCD 8
1) 6381/74 (still at 4 sunders)
2) 6595/81 (start rotation/5 sunders up)
3) 6164/73 (normal devastate this cycle)
4) 6595/81

Comments:
- (3) is least likely to get rage starved followed by (1)
- (2) seems the highest threat rotation followed closely by (4)
- (3) gets you to 5 sunders by GCD 6, (4) by GCD 7, (2) by GCD 8, and (1) by GCD 9
- The effect of sunder armor on Shield Slam (and perhaps Revenge?) is not included in here. I remember a bunch of theorycrafting back in the day about how Shield Slam doesn't really shine until 5 sunders. Take the above numbers with a grain of salt, a Shield Slam or Revenge with zero sunders does not produce as much threat as one with 5 sunders. This would tend to favor (3) and to a lesser extent (4) as they don't rely so much on zero sunder Shield Slams.

Please check my math!