[Satrina]

Fast retests:

Apply zero Sunders then 1 Devastate -> 120
Apply two Sunders then 1 Devastate -> 147
Apply four Sunders then 1 Devastate -> 176
Apply five Sunders then 1 Devastate -> 176

5 point Expose Armour, then 1 Devastate -> 111, 111, 119, 118

Given that even with a crappy dagger that hits 3-7 damage, the rogue still hit for minimum 34, it is entirely possible that the innate for zero sunders is less than 119 (109 or whatever) or so. I have a better test in mind for that, will try it tonight when I get home.

I'll note that the oddball numbers for innate are pretty consistent across all tests. The mage is hitting for 1-2 with a crappy dagger and 260 weapon skill to finish off the last hits that pull aggro.

What it looks like is that the sunder being applied counts toward the innate, and we get ???/119/134/148/162/176, but under most circumstances you will never see 109.

[Lavina]

Satrina, how sure are you the "111" threat values you gained at Devastate+EA with the rogue are correct? They do not seem consistent with the numerous small interval results around 117-119 you've gained with Devastate alone; I doubt EA truly affects Devastate threat gains.
I wouldn't be surprised if the real formula was: 101 + |15 * (#sunder - 1) | There's no point in changing the 101 value to anything not significantly different.

====

Songster mentioned the very same thought I had when reading through Satrina's results. Getting a rogue to remove your 5 Sunder stack may very well be a viable method to boost the tank's threat. Admittedly, as Bitesize mentioned, one rogue needs to have a 2/2 Improved Expose Armor to be able to remove the stacks.

Using a setup/timeframe similar to Meia's, I will theorycraft with this thought and compare it to a normal setup. Threat values include damage done at a static 30% mitigation, taken from a Tier4 geared model ( http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...-w4ADVSeqjI9BQ thanks Oohla).
We'll be looking at the threat difference between the 18th and the 66th second, as that's the time of one upkeep plus one potential rebuild phase.

Results for those with a short atention span: Dropping the SA buff increases overall threat gains slightly at Tier4ish outfit. Gear quality is strongly involved in this matter due to it's relation to Devastate.

=====

Calculation of ability threat values for Tier4ish through aqcuired data of the excel sheet. All values have been manually confirmed to be true under the set conditions: However, to accomodate to some of the present standards, I'm changing changing 19% mitigation -> 30% mitigation and 1.45 defiance modifier -> 1.495 defiance modifier as seen below.

(This section is not important, unless you like to recalc things.)

Revenge: 1,495 * (201innate + (369damage/0,81*0,7)*0,88 + (2*369crit/0,81*0,7)*0,12)
Shield Slam: 1,495 * (307innate + (671damage/0,81*0,7)*0,88 + (2*671crit/0,81*0,7)*0,12)
Sunder Armor: 1,495 * 301 
Devastate0: 1,495 * (116innate + (158dam/0,81*0,7)*0,88 + (2*158crit/0,81*0,7)*0,12)
Devastate1: 1,495 * (131innate + (185dam/0,81*0,7)*0,88 + (2*185crit/0,81*0,7)*0,12)
Devastate2: 1,495 * (146innate + (213dam/0,81*0,7)*0,88 + (2*213crit/0,81*0,7)*0,12)
Devastate3: 1,495 * (161innate + (241dam/0,81*0,7)*0,88 + (2*241crit/0,81*0,7)*0,12)
Devastate4: 1,495 * (176innate + (269dam/0,81*0,7)*0,88 + (2*269crit/0,81*0,7)*0,12)
Devastate5: 1,495 * (176innate + (297dam/0,81*0,7)*0,88 + (2*297crit/0,81*0,7)*0,12)

The matching Devastate damage formula is: 0,5 * ( Weapon Damage (140) + Attack Power (1466) / 14 * Normalized Weapon Speed (2,4) ) + 35 * #(Sunder Armor)
Devastates in the building step have their sunder armor threat added.

=====

Now onto the threat cycles. I have left out some attacks to simulate attack losses through lag and human behaviour.

Regular cycle:

Sec - BUILDUP
0 - Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Devastate0 (851) Devastate1 (913)
6 - Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Devastate2 (976) Devastate3 (1039)
12- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Devastate4 (1102) Lag
Sec - UPKEEP
18- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Devastate5 (693) Devastate5 (693)
24- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Devastate5 (693) Devastate5 (693)
30- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Devastate5 (693) Lag
36- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Devastate5 (693) Devastate5 (693)
42- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Devastate5 (693) Devastate5 (693)
Sec - UpKEEP2
48- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Devastate5 (693) Lag
54- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Devastate5 (693) Devastate5 (693)
60- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Devastate5 (693) Devastate5 (693)
66-
Sum. Buildup: 14277 Upkeep: 17982 Upkeep2: 10512 Sequence: 28494

Cycle by fading out 5 Sunders:

Sec - BUILDUP
0 - Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Devastate0 (851) Devastate1 (913)
6 - Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Devastate2 (976) Devastate3 (1039)
12- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Devastate4 (1102) Lag <FADE>
Sec - FADE
18- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Thunderclap (510) Rend (200)
24- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Thunderclap (510) Shield Bash (438)
30- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Thunderclap (510) Lag
36- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Thunderclap (510) Shield Bash (438)
42- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Thunderclap (510) Nothing </FADE>
Sec - BUILDUP
48- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Devastate0 (851) Lag
54- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Devastate1 (913) Devastate2 (976)
60- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Devastate3 (1039) Devastate4 (1102)
66-
Sum. Buildup: 14277 Upkeep: 15171 Buildup2: 14277 Sequence: 29448

Cycle with Expose Armor:

Sec - BUILDUP
0 - Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Devastate0 (851) Devastate1 (913)
6 - Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Devastate2 (976) Devastate3 (1039)
12- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Devastate4 (1102) Lag <EXPOSE ARMOR>
Sec - EXPOSE ARMOR FADE
18- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Thunder Clap (510) Devastate0 (401)
24- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Thunder Clap (510) Shield Bash (438)
30- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Thunder Clap (510) Lag
36- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Thunder Clap (510) Devastate0 (438)
42- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Thunder Clap (510) Devastate0 (401)
Sec - BUILDUP
48- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Devastate0 (851) Lag
54- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Devastate1 (913) Devastate2 (976)
60- Revenge (919) Shield Slam (1430) Devastate3 (1039) Devastate4 (1102)
66-
Sum. Buildup: 14277 Upkeep: 15973 Buildup2: 14277 Sequence: 30250

=====

Having the 5-stack Sunder Armor debuff fade for 30 seconds, then re-applying it, yields about 1000 threat in 48 seconds more than spamming Devastate in this setup, which is 21tps. This assumes Improved Thunderclap and includes a risk of accidentally re-triggering the Sunder cooldown.

The Expose Armor cycle has roughly 1800 more threat over 48 seconds, which is 37tps. More in favour of this result, the Devastate0 (401) is easily replaced by more threat dealing attacks, such as a specced Thunderclap (510) and possibly Shield Bash (438) if a lower dps is worth the threat. The Devastate5 (693) leaves no room for improvement in the regular section.

Whether or not the exchange of SA for the rogue debuff would be beneficial for overall dps/smoothness of the raid is a debate on it's own I suppose. These results hint at a (slight?) increase in threat, but that on itself might not be enough to boost a raid's effectiveness.

I should also note that these results are only true for this gearset and the choice of gear may include a decent variation. The 1466 AP assumed in this example seemd rather high to me personally. If you have less, the regular cycle will suffer and the experimental cycles will benefit, since they hold less Devastates.

Have fun I probably missed something somewhere

[Satrina]

The 111 value has an error margin of 33 points. I have a better test to do tonight when company leaves.

Do rogues even take improved EA? =)

[Satrina]

Okay, new test:

1) Me: Bloodrage, let it end, walk up and social aggro mob
2) Rogue: Walk up, make combo points, EA on mob, vanishes
3) Me: Devastate the mob and no sunder lands
4) Mage: Punches mob in the kidneys until it notices him

Devastate for 53 damage
Mage dealt out 260 just prior to drawing aggro
The hit that drew aggro was for 2 points of damage
minimum = 261/1.495/1.10 = 158.7 threat from me.
maximum = 262/1.495/1.10 = 159.3 threat from me.

Looks like 109 is the winning number, and we have the apparently random sequence 109/119/134/148/162/176

You could massage that to 105/120/135/150/165/180. The consistent result at 5 sunders is 176, but this whole thing is hardly an exact science anyway.

[Bitesize]

If it turns out that in practical situations, not doing anything to refresh Sunder for 30 seconds will actually yield better threat than spamming Devastate whenever you can... well, I really don't want to see that being the case. We'd just be going from one somewhat tedious thing to keep up with (Sunder vs Devastate) to another (have the Sunders fallen off yet? if not, must not touch Devastate key...). Of course, another problem with the "let Sunders fall off" plan is that it doesn't only prevent the MT from using Sunder/Devastate, but also any warrior OT or DPSing prot warrior, for whom being unable to use those skills would be even more of a problem. Even with EA, which allows Devastate to continue to be used, the threat it causes is destroyed by not having Sunders up. I just don't want to see this becoming a new annoyance to work out if you want maximum threat.

[Rhorr]

I'm trying to understand, does this mean we do or don't need to land sunders and just land devastate?

BTW, great website!

[Kazeyonoma]

Satrina delivers again O_o. interesting findings.

[Satrina]

Source: Rhorr I'm trying to understand, does this mean we do or don't need to land sunders and just land devastate?

That's correct. The first five Devastates that land will also apply Sunder. After the fifth, it will refresh the Sunder timer but not apply any new Sunders.

[Norrath]

It means that for warriors with Devastate, you can throw Sunder Armor off your action bars.

[Rhorr]

Ok, I have to admit, seeing how some of you calculate stuff like this blows me away. Iv'e been tanking for about 1.5 - 2 years now, and I always believe there is room to learn. Some of you have put so much time to performing test and gathering data, and posting it for others to study. I want to personally thank you for taking the time, and I'm sure it goes without saying that many other tanks feel the same way.

Since I have a busy real life (wife, kids, own a business, coaching sports, etc..) I find I lack the time to research. Now that I am aware of this website, I have spent hours reading, studying, learning.

One thing that was always obvious to me, was that there must be some kind of systematic way for warriors to properly ramp up threat, so that they are being as efficient with rage as they can be, while pushing their threat up as fast as possible, so that the dps classes dont have to hold back as much. I always thought that starting off any pull with Shield slam was the best way to go. I am still uncertain, but from what I have read here, I think I have come to the conclusion that there is a better pattern, and this ties in with the recent patch buffing Devastate so that it lands sunders now.

Here is what I have concluded as an effective cycle pattern, please comment:

Revenge --then Shield Slam--then Devastate--then Devastate,
repeat above over and over, is the patern to follow.

Btw, one of my guilds officers has the following addon http://wowwebstats.com/

We have been using it lately and from what I can see, some of our classes, including dps warriors, are too low on the dps charts from where they should be. So I imagine there is a thread somewhere or another website that helps toons of all classes to know what abilities to do when, what talents are important, what gear to shoot for...I would greatly appreciate some direction.

[Lavina]

Hey Rhorr,

I have come to about the same conclusion in terms of threat cycles. Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate, Devastate seems indeed the best cycle to maintain threat if your weapon has a good damage range.

I have acquired some data from a friend who did some tests on threat cycles (running way back to Tier 1) and compiled them into a section in my guide here on the forums. I hope there's something valuable in there for you.

[Kazeyonoma]

Threat rotation wise I'd say starting with shield slam is still your best bet, it is a huge upfront threat loader, and you want that cd to be over asap. So i wouldn't change that part of it.

As for fury warrior advice, you can always turn em to the theory forums where Meeks and a few other warriors have composed some fury gear and fury guides. They should help a lot.

[Crimsonstorm]

I plan to do:

Before 5 sunders are up:

SS/3xDev (gets em up faster!)

After 5 sunders are up:

SS/Rev/2xDev

[Wartorn]

Source: Crimsonstorm I plan to do: Before 5 sunders are up: SS/3xDev (gets em up faster!) After 5 sunders are up: SS/Rev/2xDev

Sounds right to me.

Simple almost always = better.

[Jarhead]

Source: Rhorr Here is what I have concluded as an effective cycle pattern, please comment: Revenge --then Shield Slam--then Devastate--then Devastate, repeat above over and over, is the patern to follow.

Revenge first doesn't work, since it can only follow a block, dodge, or parry. You'd end up standing there a second or 2 waiting on the mobs first attack to get blocked to light up Revenge.
Once you're into the cycle, Revenge first then Shield Slam gains nothing over SS first then Rev.

[Rhorr]

ah ok..

Thanks for the responses.

[Krisby]

You cannot forget about HS in that rotation. Since its not on the GCD. I usually go SS HS Revenge then SA. But now that the change is approaching I am looking forward to how much TPS it will generate maybe alleviate some issues.

[Brutal]

First of all - Satrina, I have been following your work for a long time. Thanks.


Ok, this is the problem I am having:

1 - After 5 sunders, devastate no longer applies the threat of sunder armor. This is what I have been reading - please correct this statement if I am wrong.

2 - if 1 is true, why wouldnt I simply switch to sunder armor after I have used devastate to get to 5 sunders? devastate = 176 threat, and sunder = 301 ? does sunder continue to apply 301 threat, even after I have 5 sunders? (it certainly used to) considering that rage cost for sunder and devastate is about the same, and that the dmg I would deal from devastate isnt much ( I currently use The Sun Eater), Im struggling with this one.

3 - does the OT steal aggro by spamming sunder before I have my 5 applied? what about after I have my 5 up?

4 - is devastate useful for the OT in any way? or should he be using sunder? primarily I am thinking of fights like like Moroes, where we usually use an OT to be second on threat.

[Kazeyonoma]

1) correct, it no longer applies sunder threat.

2) sunder does apply 301 threat after, but sunder does no additional damage. Devastate does damage, so if you deal at least 125 damage with devastate (most likely will be the case with 5 sunders up) you are doing AT least as much threat as sunder, anything more is > sunder in threat, AND devastate can crit, which will yield much more threat, since sunder cannot crit.

3) technically yes they do, since they are applying sunder instead of you, they are taking away from the upfront load of having an additional 301 threat given to you. After 5 are up since sunder armor no longer gets added to the threat of devastate, no.

4) devastate beats out sunder in every single situation now when available. If you have an OT he can sunder intbetween yours to help keep second aggro. That's fine.

[Irghen]

Source: Brutal 4 - is devastate useful for the OT in any way? or should he be using sunder? primarily I am thinking of fights like like Moroes, where we usually use an OT to be second on threat.

If your OT has devastate, tell him to use a slow weapon and use it, you'll get yours faster and he gets to contribute dps that way.

Source: Satrina Do rogues even take improved EA? =)

That I'd love to know, I'll ask tonight if we do Vashj, and try it out.