[Melange]

If your swipe does 290 average damage, and therefore 290 threat, and your lacerate does a total of 470 threat, how is that not more threat per second. Both are GCD attacks. Just because you have to wait on some of the lacerate threat, doesn't mean it is not there.

1) 470 is greater than the average damage of swipe.
2) I want to maximize my threat.
If you agree with those two statements, then lacerate is still usefull every 12 seconds.

Now it may be, that you are too lazy to maximize your threat, and it may be that you do not need to maximize your threat, but that has no bearing in a discussion of how to maximize your threat. There are fights where I have twice the threat of the nearest DPS. I will still maximize my threat. Why? Because it's the only thing I can do; my only job. (sometimes I will stick to pure maul/mangle/12secLacerate rotations in this situation though, if my trinket is on CD and I want to have my GCD for pots. So it is not always important to maximize threat.)

12-second Lacerate is better than swipe for threat-per-second, it is even better for threat-per-rage. There is no argument here only math.

[Norrath]

15-20 TPS extra, tops, is not worth keeping a 5-stack up for. And that's not even counting the dip in threat you'll have when you hit Lacerate over Swipe.

I have said before, it's there, but it's negligible.

[Melange]

So 20 TPS is worthless then? There are plenty of warriors that put the 2% increased threat enchant on gloves. I'd imagine that that would be worth about 20 TPS. Are they stupid? Meanwhile, Druids can have this 20 TPS at zero cost. You move one finger one key away every 12 seconds, (assuming you set it up like I do) and keep mashing away at your keyboard. This is all done with one hand too, (two fingers in fact) so your other can be holding the beer to your mouth, or ready to use your Badge of Tenacity, whichever your pleasure.

20 TPS directly translates into 30-40 DPS for anyone who is threat capped.

Edit: BTW, I'm done with this argument, if you want to keep going, you win.

[hkyeakley]

Wow, this is an excellent guide. I like having all the important numbers calculated out for me.

I think I detected one error, however, under the armor section. You state:

Source: Qaletaqa 100 armor * 1.1 = 110 * 4 = 440 Armor in Bear Form

When I take the number 100 and add 10% on a calculator, I get 110. When I then add 400% to 110, I get 550, not 440. Adding 400% to a number is not the same as simply multiplying a number by 4. If I added 100% to $1, I'd have $2 instead of $1 * 1 = $1. So unless I'm mistaken, your example should read:

100 armor * 1.1 (3/3 Thick Hide) = 110 armor
110 armor + 400% = 110 + (110 * 4) = 110 + 440 = 550 armor

Or, if you wanted to keep it really simple, just remember that 5.5 is the magic number for factoring in Thick Hide and Dire Bear Form into Feral Armor Contribution.

If I'm totally off on my math, I apologize.

Again, this is an awesome guide. Thank you for writing it.

[Kazeyonoma]

Source: hkyeakley Wow, this is an excellent guide. I like having all the important numbers calculated out for me. I think I detected one error, however, under the armor section. You state: When I take the number 100 and add 10% on a calculator, I get 110. When I then add 400% to 110, I get 550, not 440. Adding 400% to a number is not the same as simply multiplying a number by 4. If I added 100% to $1, I'd have $2 instead of $1 * 1 = $1. So unless I'm mistaken, your example should read: 100 armor * 1.1 (3/3 Thick Hide) = 110 armor 110 armor + 400% = 110 + (110 * 4) = 110 + 440 = 550 armor Or, if you wanted to keep it really simple, just remember that 5.5 is the magic number for factoring in Thick Hide and Dire Bear Form into Feral Armor Contribution. If I'm totally off on my math, I apologize. Again, this is an awesome guide. Thank you for writing it.

Your making a misassumption of how multipliers work.

Its not +400%, its 400%, which means +300% to spare yourself any of the trouble its easier to just do what the OP did, and multiplicatively do everything.

If you have 100 armor, and you gain 10% from some talent, that's 100*1.1 = 110, then you give 400% more for bear form, which gives 110*4.0 = 440.

remember, 10% more = 110% = 1.1 just as 400% =4.0

[Norrath]

Source: Melange So 20 TPS is worthless then? There are plenty of warriors that put the 2% increased threat enchant on gloves. I'd imagine that that would be worth about 20 TPS. Are they stupid? Meanwhile, Druids can have this 20 TPS at zero cost. You move one finger one key away every 12 seconds, (assuming you set it up like I do) and keep mashing away at your keyboard. This is all done with one hand too, (two fingers in fact) so your other can be holding the beer to your mouth, or ready to use your Badge of Tenacity, whichever your pleasure. 20 TPS directly translates into 30-40 DPS for anyone who is threat capped. Edit: BTW, I'm done with this argument, if you want to keep going, you win.

Sigh. No, it's not worthless. I didn't say it was. I said it was negligible, which is not the same. It's not something you're going to miss.

If you want to absolutely maximize your threat, then yes, it's another thing you can do. It all adds up. But it's a very minor threat increase.

[Melange]

Source: Kazeyonoma Your making a misassumption of how multipliers work. Its not +400%, its 400%, which means +300% to spare yourself any of the trouble its easier to just do what the OP did, and multiplicatively do everything. If you have 100 armor, and you gain 10% from some talent, that's 100*1.1 = 110, then you give 400% more for bear form, which gives 110*4.0 = 440. remember, 10% more = 110% = 1.1 just as 400% =4.0

HK was correct, it is a 500% multiplier, making it 550 with talents.

Dire Bear Form Shapeshift
35% of base Mana
Instant cast
Shapeshift into a dire bear, increasing melee attack power by 120, armor contribution from items by 400%, and Stamina by 25%. Also protects the caster from Polymorph effects and allows the use of various bear abilities.

The act of shapeshifting frees the caster of Polymorph and Movement Impairing effects.

[Norrath]

hkyeakley and Melange are correct. It's +400%.

[Melange]

A few points for the OP:

It should probably be mentioned in the agility or dodge sections that as your dodge increases, every percent you get has increased effectiveness in keeping you alive, whereas hp increases diminish in effectiveness, and armor remains constant.

Your stam calculations are off. Warrior vitality is 5, not 10. Paladins have a 10% and a 6% multiplier.

The armor section needs a mention of armor caps for lvl 70,71,72, and 73 mobs. Just go over to Sat's section and steal those numbers.

1% Dodge is a good racial, but it does not compare to 5% stam. You're kidding yourself. For it to be as good, you would need around 70% avoidance, which is possible, but not for most Druids against non-dualweilders.

Expertise should be included in the stats section, it could be grouped with hit.

We only need 101.2% Miss+Dodge to become unhittable. (Overpowered Druids, that's why.) You should also mention in the uncrushable section that not all lvl73 mobs crush, and that some lower level mobs will crush. I would also assume that you need less dodge to become unhittable against a mob that doesnt crush, although I do not know if anyone has tested this. (Funny crushing story, we once had a human paladin tank with +15 weaponskill, he got MCed and crushed half our healers to death. I guess you had to be there.)

Feral Charge and Faerie Fire (Feral) are core, class-defining abilities and should be labeled as such.

You forgot to color Mangle.

Also your "Cookie Cutter" PVE build takes brutal impact, which is not as good as intensity, and is mostly useless in PVE. Although you could take the points out of Primal Tenacity if you want, since getting feared doesnt really matter anymore.

The HS/Pot Macro you have uses both a HS and a Pot when used. (It's the same as I use, although I use tk/orgri'la pots and charged crystal foci as well.) Also you need to put some big warnings all over it to make sure you are not on GCD, or you will not end in bear form. I usually find that if I am tanking, I am mashing my keyboard like a crazy person, and always will need to wait 1.5 seconds to use a pot, if I need one, which usually leaves me dead. Last boss I tanked, I actually found myself in caster form for a bit. Luckly he didn't swing fast enough to hit me before I got back in bear form.

Foot enchant can also be Dexterity (12 agility), which is what I and most NE druids use, AFAIK.

Chest can be Resilience, if you need crit immunity. Resilience will get you faster crit immunity than defense, and you only are giving up 12 stats for 15, if you only use the chest for bear form, as opposed to giving up 12 for 12 defense on the bracers. If your chest is used for cat as well, this may not make sense.

Right after that you link to Emmerald's list, which is horrible. Link to Rawr instead, or you are going to have some oddly geared bears running around.

[Norrath]

Source: Melange We only need 101.2% Miss+Dodge to become unhittable. (Overpowered Druids, that's why.)

... heh, I can't believe I never thought of that. Of course you "only" need 101.2%. You don't get parry or block.

Source: Melange I would also assume that you need less dodge to become unhittable against a mob that doesnt crush, although I do not know if anyone has tested this.

You shouldn't -- as long as the mob is level 73. The non-crush factor is not based off their level, but a custom attack table (as far as I know).