[Clyde]

Talent selection for tanking warriors -- a modular approach

[Current as of patch 2.1.3]

A frequent question for those warriors who want to move into a tanking role is how to spec out their talent choices. Similarly, questions arise as to what a good tank should look like, talent wise, and what talents are truly required, what talents are useful but not required, and what talents are marginal at best. This guide assumes a level 70 warrior, with his basic skills purchased up to maximum level. Many of the core concepts can be used at an earlier level, but most of the numbers will be off. Also, no consideration is given for other reasonable goals like PvP or PvE DPS orientation.

Reduced to its simplest form, tanking requires two basic goals. First, a tank must be able to keep the attention of a target, which entails aggro generation. Second, a tank must provide as much aid to the healing staff as possible, by damage mitigation. These tasks can, of course, be performed by any warrior, and indeed by any character to one degree or another. But in choosing a protection role, a warrior selects talents to maximize that aggro generation in order to allow his DPS team to focus far more damage on a single target, or chooses to maximize his ability to hold the attention of multiple targets, or chooses to make himself as easy as possible for his healing staff to keep alive as he can, or some balance between the three. It is these distinctions and choices that lend themselves to talent selection analysis.

In the process of making talent choices for myself, I find that I reduce the complexity of the decision making process by first selecting those talents that I simply refuse to leave behind as a protection warrior. Second, I consider what sort of tanking I plan on doing, and with whom. Based on that information, I then fill in the rest of my talent choices to compliment the needs of my target and my team.

From this, talent choices break down into four broad categories. First, there are those talents that are core to the tanking warrior. These I refer to as Required Courses. The second group are a set of talents that I have options with, but some must be chosen to allow enough talent points to be spent in the protection tree that the first category can be completely selected. These are my Restricted Electives. The third group is a set of talents that may be chosen at will, complementing my tanking needs and goals as needed, the Free Electives. The final group of talents are those that, while they may be of use to the PvP or the DPS warrior, play no appreciable role in tanking, and will not be discussed here.

A level 70 character has 61 talent points available for allocation. For tanking warriors, these break down as follows:

Required Courses - 28 points (46%)
Restricted Electives - 14 points (23%)
Free Electives - 19 points (31%)

Of course, points allocated to Free Electives may be, and often are, allocated to additional Restricted Electives instead.

Lets look at each of these broad categories in depth.

[Clyde]

Required Courses

The Required Courses are a set of tanking talents that are of sufficient utility that they all but require selection. While one can tank without doing so, their omission would require unusual circumstances, or an odd justification. While one should never blindly select any items from a build, it is a rare protection warrior that will not include the full set. Sorted by talent tree and tier, they are:

Deflection
Improved Thunderclap
Shield Specialization
Last Stand
Improved Shield Block
Defiance
Concussion Blow
One Handed Specialization
Shield Slam
Focused Rage

Arms:

Deflection (5 points) : Providing 1% parry per point, this can bring the equivalent of 157.5 points of Parry rating to a level 70 warrior. Excellent mitigation for its cost.

Improved Thunderclap (3 points) : Thunderclap normally deals 123 points of damage to up to four nearby enemies. Fully talented, this doubles this damage. When factored through Defensive Stance with Defiance, this will cause an additional 160 points of threat to up to four targets for three talent points, or as much as 128 points of additional total threat per talent point. In addition, it reduces slows incoming damage by an additional 10%, which is almost as good as the damage reduction for being in Defensive Stance to begin with. Very highly recommended.

Fury:
No fury talents are considered core, though we will return to some as electives.

Protection:

Shield Specialization (5 points) : 5% block is roughly 39.5 block rating, which is nice, and the extra rage point per block is helpful, but the real attraction is the prerequisite for Improved Shield Block.

Last Stand (1 point) : Being able to immediately burst 30% of your health for 20 seconds can be an amazing wipe prevention tool, giving your healing staff time to overcome surprises and emergencies.

Improved Shield Block (1 point) : When active, Improved Shield Block's additional +75% chance to block is more than enough for a reasonably equiped tank to push both Criticals and Crushing Blows off the combat table for two hits, in addition to readily making Revenge available. Many tanking fights center around a rotation that has keeping Improved Shield Block active whenever possible at the core of it. An amazingly good ability, far better than a first glance reveals.

Defiance (3 points) : Normally, when in Defensive Stance, your actions generate 30% more aggro than a baseline attack of the same size would. Defiance stacks on another +15% to that, basically making your attacks 145% more aggro than an equivalently sized attack from another neutral character. Another way to look at it, Defiance more than eliminates the "Defensive Stance penalty" on damage with respect to aggro.

Concussion Blow (1 point) : A useful stun against trash mobs, Concussion Blow provides a useful spell interrupt and some handy utility in PvP, but is of limited usefulness (at best) against bosses. It is, however, a prereq for Shield Slam.

One Handed Specialization (5 points) : Each point generates 2% more damage with one handed attacks, which translates almost directly into additional aggro. Note that attacks in defensive stance have this increase stack directly with that provided by Defiance.

Shield Slam (1 point) : A powerful generator of aggro at a low 20 point rage cost. Doing 430+block points of damage, with 1H specialization and defiance, this can instantly generate well over 800 points of aggro without any equipment dedicated to additional Block, and scales wonderfully with the right gear. Since the release of the Burning Crusade, this has replaced Sunder Armor as the main aggro generation talent... most single target aggro generation attack rotations center around opening with Shield Slam and keeping it in use whenever it's cooldown completes.

Focused Rage (3 points) : Reducing each attack by 3 rage stacks up amazingly quickly. Assuming a 3 minute boss fight, where you are "button mashing" as quickly as you can, this could save 480 rage over the course of the battle without taking into account a single "next attack" ability. Nothing else comes close.

[Clyde]

Restricted Electives

A quick observation of the Required Courses above reveals a simple truth. Although they include some terrific protection talents, there are not enough prerequisites to take even the first one of them, let alone all of them. In order to select them, a number of other protection talents are required. They are:

5 points from:
Improved Bloodrage
Tactical Mastery
Anticipation

5 more points from the any of the above plus:
Toughness
Improved Revenge
Improved Taunt
Improved Sunder Armor

4 more points from any of the above plus:
Improved Shield Wall
Improved Shield Bash

More points can be spent on these, of course, out of the budget assigned to Free Electives. But at least 14 must be spent, as tiered above, in order to allow the Required Courses to be taken.

Improved Bloodrage (2 points) : Provides 3 or 6 extra on demand rage in addition to the 20 provided by Bloodrage. Fully talented, in our example 3 minute fight, this provides 6/480 = 1.25% of what Focused Rage brings. What makes it worth considering is the "on demand" nature of Bloodrage, allowing a warrior to take a rage-demanding action when needed, for example as a fight begins.

Tactical Mastery (3 points) : Increasing the rage retained during stance changes from 10 points to 15/20/25 points through 3 talent points, while critical for PvP is of less use if you spend your life in Defensive Stance. Still, having the flexibility to change over to Berzerker to Intercept or Execute can help greatly in 5 mans where you are providing both tanking and a strong measure of DPS.

Anticipation (5 points) : Adding 4 skill points of defense per talent point is nothing to sneeze at, as it brings the equivalent of 48 defense rating, but the great variety of high +DEF gear in the endgame means that it is not too difficult to attain 490 defense without this talent. Taking Anticipation really means freeing up equipment points from +DEF to other useful stats such as stamina.

Toughness (5 points) : Increasing your armor by 2% per point to a maximum of 10%, Toughness is a very useful mitigation talent that provides scaling benefits. Toughness also directly increases the "effective health" of a tank, increasing the total amount of melee damage required to bring him to zero. A must have for high end tanking, and useful in almost every situation.

Improved Revenge (3 points) : Adding a 15/25/40% chance of a 6 second stun on the frequently available Revenge talent provides an unpredictable form of mitigation. Very popular with builds for Heroics, of less or no use on boss tanking due to stun immunity.

Improved Taunt (2 points) : Reducing the 10 second taunt cooldown to 9 or 8 seconds, Improved Taunt is only of use in situations where taunt must be used frequently. Extremely useful with pick up groups, of limited or no use with well disciplined teams that practice good fire control.

Improved Sunder Armor (3 points) : Reducing the cost of Sunder Armor from 12 rage to 9 (since we assume Focused Rage) is of great use when Devastate is not available or in multi-tanking situations where Sunder can be places on many different targets. In situations where Devastate will be available and used instead it may only save 15 points of rage over the course of the fight. But when multitanking that savings can go up significantly.

Improved Shield Wall (2 points) : Increasing the short duration of Shield Wall by 3 or 5 seconds seems very minor, given that it is a once every 30 minute ability. But when involved in high end boss tanking it can be a wipe prevention tool of the highest order. With two points, this talent causes Shield Wall to mitigate physical damage about as well as a paladin's Blessing of Protection (comparing durations) without the aggro dump. Wonderful for raid tanks, of limited use otherwise.

Improved Shield Bash (2 points) : The ability to silence a caster on demand with a Shield Bash, even for a short duration, allows the target to be moved by the tank to a more advantageous location, which can be wonderful in a variety of situations. Most bosses are unaffected by silence, but when fighting one that is not, this becomes a wonderful addition. A good anti-caster choice.

[Clyde]

Free Electives

Unlike the Restricted Electives, Free Electives are not required to provide points needed to support the Required Courses. Thus, the 19 points available in this category can be spent anywhere, including spending additional points for additional Restricted Electives. However, the fact that Free Electives are not required does not mean they are any less useful. Again, it depends on what you are planning on doing.

Improved Heroic Strike
Improved Charge
Iron Will
Anger Management

Booming Voice
Cruelty
Improved Demoralizing Shout
Unbridled Wrath
Piercing Howl
Improved Cleave
Commanding Presence

Shield Mastery
Improved Defensive Stance
Vitality
Devastate

Improved Heroic Strike (3 points) : Reducing the cost of Heroic Strike from 12 to 9 points (including Focused Rage) makes this high aggro generating ability all that more attractive. With a fast weapon, this talent can generate a very high amount of rage savings. Even if used only once every 5 seconds, it would save 108 rage over the course of a three minute fight, for a rage gain of .6 rage / second. Clearly this will be greater if a very fast weapon is used in a high rage situation. However, the requirements of Heroic Strike and of Devastate tend to be at odds, so this is often left out of Devastate builds. It is also of little use in very high end raiding, due to the vast amount of rage coming from massive damage taken. Two points of Improved Heroic and a single point of Anger Management produces more benefit than three points of Heroic alone.

Improved Charge (2 points) : Generates 3 or 6 additional rage at the beginnings of fights where a charge pull is used. In our "three minute fight" this is only 6 rage total, for a rage gain of .033 rage / second. However, since it is at the beginning of the fight, it can help gain control of the initial stages. Of limited use overall.

Iron Will (5 points) : Reducing the chance of stun or charm by 3% per level for a maximum of 15% is a small bonus, but being stunned can certainly be enough of a negative to be worth consideration. This can help you keep aggro through encounters where otherwise you would not be able to do so. More attractive to Orc warriors as it will stack with their racial.

Anger Management (1 point) : Generating 1 rage per tick, Anger Mangement is a straightforward way of producing more rage for use, obviously bringing in 20 rage per minute. It does require an additional two points in other Arms talents beyond the Required Courses to take, but is a solid choice.

Booming Voice (5 points) : Allowing Demoralizing Shout to last an additional 15 seconds would save 20 rage in a hypothetical 3 minute fight, for an unimpressive savings of .17 rage per second. The real attraction of Booming Voice is the additional area that a Demoralizing Shout covers, allowing the warrior to spread his aggro gathering shout over a larger area, countering the tendency of an initial pull to let mobs "dribble" in over a few seconds. Of some use with multi-tanking.

Cruelty (5 points) : Cruelty adds +5% to the critical chance of a warrior. This equates to about 110.5 critical rating for a 70 warrior. Adding additional crit will generate more aggro, roughly 3-4% additional, which will go through the usual multiplication from defensive stance and defiance. Naturally, the additional +Crit from Cruelty is of immediate use against trash and when multi-tanking, but it must be remembered that it is "bursty" and while reliable with sufficient attacks cannot be counted on at any given point in a fight.

Improved Demoralizing Shout (5 points) : A level 70 warrior will reduce attackers AP by 300 with Demo Shout. Improving this with the talent will bring out an additional 24 AP per rank, for a total of 120 AP reduction. Against other players, this results in an additional 8.57 DPS per attacker, not a significant number. But the formula seems to be different when dealing with mobs and bosses. Empirical testing seems to show roughly a 15% damage reduction from melee with demo shout, with as much as 7% additional reduction fully improved, though mobs with a limited amount of AP (<420) may not have enough to justify a full 5 points here as AP cannot go negative.

Unbridled Wrath (5 points) : Assuming something approximating the old formula, each rank will provide an 8% chance of an additional rage point on autoattacks, to a maximum of 40%. Assuming a fast (speed 1.5) weapon, this will generate some 36 rage per minute for a total of 108 in a hypothetical 3 minute fight. Clearly a better choice for a tank that occasionally dual wields than one that remains strictly sword-and-board, but might find use for tanks scrambling for every last possible rage point.

Piercing Howl (1 point) : The ability to put a 6 second AoE movement snare on a group of mobs can provide a tank with precious time to get groups of enemies under control. It has also been used with some success at allowing kiting of enemies in desperate situations. It does require 10 points of Fury talents above it, limiting it's availability somewhat.

Improved Cleave (3 points) : Untalented, the Cleave ability will add 70 damage to both targets. Fully talented this bonus damage is improved to 154 on each. Clearly a multi-tanking talent, this would be used in Defensive stance with Defiance, for an addition of ((154-90)*.9*1.45) = 116 additional aggro from the 3 talent points on each target. This could help in multi-tanking, but since it does not scale it might be inadequate at higher gear levels.

Commanding Presence (5 points) : Each talent point in Commanding Presence will improve Battle Shout or Commanding Shout by 5%, up to a maximum of 25%. Looking at Battle Shout at level 70, this provides +305AP, so 5/5 in Commanding Presence will add 76.25 AP for a gain of 5.44 DPS. Commanding Shout brings 1080 health to each party member, so 5/5 Commanding Shout adds another 270 health for the shout's duration. Obviously how much benefit this derives will depend on the rest of your team.

Shield Mastery (3 points) : Boosting the block value of your shield by 30% fully talented directly improves both the mitigation of your blocks and the aggro generated by your primary single target aggro talent, Shield Slam. Since this is a percentage based talent, it will scale upwards as your gear does.

Improved Defensive Stance (3 points) : One of the great advantages held by protection warriors vs. their other tanking counterparts is their ability to mitigate spell damage by Spell Reflection, Shield Bash and the inherent 10% less damage taken in Defensive Stance. Improved Defensive Stance improves that inherent bonus from 10% to 16% against spells when fully talented. What Toughness is to physical damage, Improved Defensive Stance is to spells. An excellent choice when dealing with spell based boss fights, but useless against physical opponents.

Vitality (5 points) : Adding 10% more strength and 5% more stamina fully talented, Vitality adds both to aggro generated and in staying power. However, it doesn't add really significantly to either for the cost. To get your DPS increase, divide your current strength by 70, so a warrior with 350 STR to start with will add 35 STR = 70 AP = 5 DPS, which in defensive stance will end up being 6.5 threat per second, or 1.3 additional TPS per talent point. The additional stamina might be more significant, as a warrior with 10,000 health would then have an additional 500 health, basically adding +50 STA. For raid tanks, who have enormous stamina equipment and raid buffs and must take absurd amounts of damage, this becomes almost a "must have."

Devastate (1 point) : When used, Devastate renews the Sunder Armor effect that is already in place on a mob, and hits for (number of sunders *35 ) + half weapon damage. Since Sunder Armor has an innate threat of 300, and Devastate has an innate threat of 101, this means that a Devastate must hit for at least 200 points to generate the same threat as Sunder would have. If you hit for more than that, Devastate is a good replacement in the aggro rotation for Sunder Armor. Note that Devastate might cost more rage if you have talented Improved Sunder, so in that case your Devastate would need to hit for 300 or more to be better rage / threat. As an instant attack, Devastate is more effective with slow weapons, and much more effective with non-daggers due to the attack speed normalization of 2.4 for one-handed weapons vs. the 1.7 attack speed normalization for daggers with regards to AP.

[Clyde]

Choices and Comparisons

When selecting electives, a tank should first decide what his goals are. Does he want to focus on aggro, mitigation, rage generation, or some mix of these? Are you planning on a multi-tanking situation, or are you more concerned about surviving the boss at the end of the instance?

Lets compare some of the talents we have listed and see what makes the most sense.

Goal - Single target aggro generation

Defiance (3/3) (Req.) : +15% to all aggro
Shield Slam (1/1) (Req.): significant instant aggro attack
One Handed Specialization (Req.) : +10% to all weapon damage
Shield Mastery (3/3) (Free) : +30% to Shield Slam
Devastate (1/1) (Free) : Renew sunder with instant attack
Cruelty (5/5) (Free) : +5% to crittable melee aggro if no crit cap
Vitality (5/5) (Free) : +5% to AP from Strength
Improved Thunderclap (3/3) (Req.) : +160 aggro per T-clap
Commanding Presence (5/5) (Free) : 6.5 DPS

Goal - Multi-target aggro generation

Defiance (3/3) (Req.) : +15% to all aggro
One Handed Specialization (Req.) : +10% to all weapon damage
Improved Thunderclap (3/3) (Req.) : +160 aggro to each target
Improved Cleave (3/3) (Free) : +116 aggro to both targets
Cruelty (5/5) (Req.) : +5% to crittable melee aggro if no crit cap
Vitality (5/5) (Free) : +5% to AP from Strength
Improved Demoralizing Shout (Free) : Additional range on shouts
Commanding Presence (5/5) (Free) : 6.5 DPS

Goal - Physical Damage Mitigation

Improved Shield Block (1/1) (Req.) : Vast reduction in crits, crushs
Improved Thunderclap (3/3) (Req.) : Additional 10% attack reduction
Toughness (5/5) (Rest.) : Additional 10% Armor
Deflection (5/5) (Req.) : Additional 5% Parry
Improved Demoralizing Shout (5/5) (Free) : 8.5 DPS reduction per foe
Improved Revenge (3/3) (Rest.) : 40% stun on Revenge
Anticipation (5/5) (Rest.) : Additional 20 Defense Skill
Shield Mastery (3/3) (Free) : Additional 30% on Block value
Shield Specialization (5/5) (Req.) : Additional 39.5 Block Rating

Goal - Magic Damage Reduction

Improved Defensive Stance (3/3) (Free) : 6% less spell damage
Concussion Blow (1/1) (Req.) : Interrupt via stun
Improved Shield Bash (2/2) (Rest.) : Interrupt via silence

Goal - Avoiding and Surviving Panics

Last Stand (1/1) (Req.) : Additional 30% Health on demand
Improved Shield Wall (2/2) (Rest.) : Additional 5 seconds of 75% less damage
Improved Taunt (2/2) (Rest.) : Reduced cooldown on Taunt
Vitality (5/5) (Free) : 5% more stamina
Piercing Howl (1/1) (Free) : Slow and possibly kite enemies
Improved Shield Bash (2/2) (Rest.) : Silence and position casters
Tactical Mastery (3/3) (Rest.) : Retain 15 additional rage on stance changes
Iron Will (5/5) (Free) : 15% less chance of stun or charm
Improved Bloodrage (2/2) : 6 additional rage on demand

Goal - Rage generation and management

Focused Rage (3/3) (Req.) : ~2 rage / sec (assuming roughly 1 attack / GCD)
Improved Sunder Armor (3/3) (Rest.) : 15 rage/foe + .1 rage/sec/foe
Anger Management (1/1) (Free) : .33 rage / sec
Improved Heroic Strike (3/3) (Free) : ~.66 rage / sec (assuming 1 HS / 5 sec)
Shield Specialization (5/5) (Req.) : ~.4 rage / sec (assuming ~ 1 attack / sec)
Unbridled Wrath (5/5) (Free) : ~.26 rage / sec (assuming speed 1.5 weapon)
Booming Voice (5/5) (Free) : ~.17 rage / sec
Improved Thunderclap (3/3) (Req.) : .13 rage / sec
Improved Bloodrage (2/2) (Rest.) : 6 rage on demand
Tactical Mastery (3/3) (Rest.) : 15 additional rage per stance change
Improved Charge (2/2) (Free) : 6 rage at pull if charge used

[Clyde]

Decision Making Examples

Here are some examples of some reasonable decisions. I do not claim that these are the only or even best possible builds, but this shows how the structure provided can guide warriors into an acceptable build.

1- Planned Heroic Tanking
Adam plans to start tanking in Heroics for the time being. Based on what he has heard, he is mostly concerned with keeping control of multiple hard hitting trash mobs. Mitigation is a secondary choice. He does not plan on worrying overmuch about his rage bar. He has a solid group that knows each other well, so he is not planning around panic situations. He does think that being able to add DPS at the end of each group might be very useful. In addition to the Required Courses, he takes:

Restricted Electives:
Improved Bloodrage (2/2) - Grab immediate control at the beginning of each pull
Tactical Mastery (3/3) - Change stances for DPS at the end
Toughness (5/5) - More armor based mitigation
Improved Revenge (3/3) - Expecting Revenge to be up often, mitigates via stun
Improved Shield Bash (2/2) - For caster control

Free Electives: (18 points remaining)
Cruelty (5/5) - Produce more damage and damage threat
Improved Demoralizing Shout (5/5) - Reduce incoming damage from large packs
Improved Cleave (3/3) - More aggro on multiple mobs
Piercing Howl (1/1) - Just in case a group of mobs must be kited
Vitality (4/5) - Additional health buffer for healers

2- 25-Man Raid Tanking
Beth is the main tank for her guild as they move into 25-man content. Only two concerns drive her, surviving each encounter and pushing the envelope on how quickly her DPS can bring down the target.

Restricted Electives:
Anticipation (5/5) = Allows stacking of more Stamina gear by trading out Defense
Toughness (5/5) - Obvious addition of armor based mitigation
Improved Sunder Armor (2/3) - Cheaper sunders for the start of the encounter
Improved Shield Wall (2/2) - 5 seconds more can mean success or failure

Free Electives: (19 points remaining)
Improved Heroic Strike (3/3) - Simple goal: keep Heroic Strike up at all times
Shield Mastery (3/3) - Improve the aggro further
Improved Defensive Stance (3/3) - Reduce incoming spell damage
Devastate (1/1) - Her solid one-hander will out-aggro Sunder armor
Vitality (5/5) - More room for the healing staff to work with
Cruelty (4/5) - More aggro generated through the encounter

3- PUG Tanking
Charlie is in the middle of multiple rep grinds in Outlands. Right now he is working pick up group after pick up group for dungeon crawls. The good thing is that as a tank he rarely has to look long for a team. The bad thing is you never know what you are going to get when you do...

Restricted Electives:
Improved Bloodrage (2/2) - For when rage is needed out of the box
Anticipation (5/5) - His gear isn't yet at the point where this can be skipped
Toughness (5/5) - Help out the mitigation situation while gearing up
Improved Sunder Armor (3/3) - Help get those sunders out fast
Improved Taunt (2/2) - For when the fire mage brings out the pyroblast
Improved Shield Wall (2/2) - Help out whoever might be healing

Free Electives: (14 points remaining)
Improved Charge (2/2) - I'll do the pulling tonight, thanks
Anger Management (1/1) - More rage will be needed, even when aggro isn't held
Cruelty (5/5) - Important to keep the damage output up
Booming Voice (5/5) - Cast a wider net to catch far ranging mobs
Piercing Howl (1/1) - Helpful when kiting a train of mobs

[Clyde]

Final thoughts

First off, let me put out a thank you to all that came before me... to Satrina, for a simply amazing amount of warrior based analysis, to Ciderhelm, for an inspirational tanking guide, to Kenco, Wanderlei and Armstrong for their guides on threat, avoidance and the use of devastate. All of those can be found at Satrina's place over at http://evilempireguild.org.

Let me also put out a big shout for the folks doing number crunching and research over at Elitist Jerks, as well as all the rest of you theorycrafters out there revealing how it really works. Bravo and well done.

To those of you who are new at tanking, I hope my guide is of some use. Let me point you towards these other materials for the rest of the story... how to use what you have built. Good luck, and may you never see a clothie fall before you do.

[Ciderhelm]

Toughness under this model should -- in my opinion -- be considered a Required Course.

(Just re-iterating this as I said on the WoW-US forums; about to link this to the frontpage of the website)

[Crimsonstorm]

I agree toughness is essential.

I get over 1500 armor from toughness. Thats about as much effective health as another 100+ stamina.

Additionally, That armor prevents as much damage, as about 50 defense rating.

It prevents more damage than anticipation, while also substantially increasing effective health.

Having it vs not having it is like getting an entire raid zone worth of tank upgrades.

[Paruhdox]

If you played in Naxx you would know Toughness is key, ever try to tank a hateful strike on patchwerk with out 10k hp and toughness. It doesnt work, I have just under 18k armor now so take away toughness im sitting at 16k its a huge drop, its like having a perma stoneshield potion

[Clyde]

Toughness is the, er, tough one, isn't it?

The real question to me is the target audience of the guide. When doing raid content, Toughness is key. But is it as key when doing non-heroic five man content? How about for a tank with inadequate defense? Yes, it clearly ups effective health, but in lower grade content effective health may not be the best choice in all circumstances.

Toughness strikes me as a highly scaled attribute. For a raid geared tank, it provides immense benefits. But for a starter tank working with a mix of quest greens and auction house gear, the benefit is less. For a team such as the one I worked up with, where I had a five man team with a pair of solid healers, I was much more worried about aggro than surviveability.

At least for now, I'm leaning towards keeping it optional.

Let me ask it this way... which of the following would you rank below Toughness, if any...

-- Last Stand
-- Improved Shield Block
-- Defiance
-- 1H Specialization
-- Shield Slam
-- Focussed Rage

For me, I see the last five as just absolutely essential, and the first one as being too good to pass up at its low price. Toughness is close, I think, for most tanks. I think it's a rare build indeed that would bypass it, and perhaps it's absolutely required for the mid to high end content. But I'm not quite sure it hits that same exact level of value that the above ones do.

[Clyde]

Source: Paruhdox If you played in Naxx you would know Toughness is key, ever try to tank a hateful strike on patchwerk with out 10k hp and toughness. It doesnt work, I have just under 18k armor now so take away toughness im sitting at 16k its a huge drop, its like having a perma stoneshield potion

If I was tanking Naxx, I would agree that Toughness is key... in Naxx, or in Gruul's lair, or in Black Temple. I certainly wouldn't want to take a Patchwerk hateful strike without it. But what about in normal mode Mana Tombs?

I think Toughness' importance increases as the tanking difficulty increases, but at the low end there are other options.

[Aelvain]

Glancing blows now only occupy ~25% of the combat table - tanking warriors should hardly have to worry about reaching a crit cap.

[Clyde]

Source: Aelvain Glancing blows now only occupy ~25% of the combat table - tanking warriors should hardly have to worry about reaching a crit cap.

Oh! Good point. I had noticed the change, but forgot that I had mentioned it when I wrote my Cruelty entry. Updated. Thanks much!

[Crimsonstorm]

Imo, toughness should be essential for all tanks. its one of the best talents in the entire tree. undergeared tanks who are doing 5 mans need it desperately to try and not die in their instances, just as raid tanks need it.

Show me any prot talent spec without 5/5 toughness, for any level of tanking, and I'll find points in that build which should be moved into it.

[Crimsonstorm]

Source: Clyde Let me ask it this way... which of the following would you rank below Toughness, if any... -- Last Stand -- Improved Shield Block -- Defiance -- 1H Specialization -- Shield Slam -- Focussed Rage For me, I see the last five as just absolutely essential, and the first one as being too good to pass up at its low price. Toughness is close, I think, for most tanks. I think it's a rare build indeed that would bypass it, and perhaps it's absolutely required for the mid to high end content. But I'm not quite sure it hits that same exact level of value that the above ones do.

For a 5 man tank, who never raids, Imp Shield block/Shield specialization is not essential, since there are no crushing blows. For any tank who fights lv 73 mobs, it is essential.

The only one of those I might put under toughness is last stand, (but for 1 pt, its awesome as you say). However, there are still a bunch more prot talent point to be spent after the ones listed, and I think toughness is the most critical of the ones that are left. Basically, I would extend the list of essentials to include it.

[Sojin]

Hey Clyde, I really like what you have written here. I have read a couple of different posts on talent specs and they are either confusing or contradicting in some way... there is an obvious range of choice to be made when making a spec, and right now I'm in a transition position where I have been doing heroics and I will still be doing heroics, but I will be raiding Kara once a week.

So I was wondering what would be for me a good spec. here is what I have so far.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I think this works for me, I didn't get vitality because I don't have too much gear yet, so its not really much of a scale maybe like 550 hp. If you need armory just let me know I'll find it. (I don't know when/how armory resets so I don't know how updated it is, since right now I'm not wearing my tank gear.

But yeah again, I really like what you have written here, really understandable and well thought through. gj man.

[Baceramus]

Uuuuh.

Whats with the thread necromancy?

[Abrinis]

Hey Clyde,

Good post here with some usefull information, aside from agreeing with the other guys on toughness, I am wondering about this spec you posted.

Goal - Single target aggro generation Defiance (3/3) (Req.) : +15% to all aggro Shield Slam (1/1) (Req.): significant instant aggro attack One Handed Specialization (Req.) : +10% to all weapon damage Shield Mastery (3/3) (Free) : +30% to Shield Slam Devastate (1/1) (Free) : Renew sunder with instant attack Cruelty (5/5) (Free) : +5% to crittable melee aggro if no crit cap Vitality (5/5) (Free) : +5% to AP from Strength Improved Thunderclap (3/3) (Req.) : +160 aggro per T-clap Commanding Presence (5/5) (Free) : 6.5 DPS

I am trying to figure out how you managed to get defiance, improved thunderclap3/3 and still managed to get commanding presense 5/5

to the best of my ability can only manage a 2 and thats if I loose some of my thunderclap ability or devistate.

[Insin]

Source: Clyde Improved Sunder Armor (3 points) : Reducing the cost of Sunder Armor from 12 rage to 9 (since we assume Focused Rage) is of great use when Devastate is not available or in multi-tanking situations where Sunder can be places on many different targets. In situations where Devastate will be available and used instead it may only save 15 points of rage over the course of the fight. But when multitanking that savings can go up significantly.

Just a note, improved sunder armour now affects both devastate and sunder, that plus Focused Rage really helps.