[Dunmail]

Source: Daavos Chuck you Farley. I had to pug my gear with craptastic dps'er and there newly crafted purple gear of I'm-a-tailor-give-me-my-purps while I was out farming dungeon blue gear, mixed with my green champion gear. I did every goddamn quest chain to get the best tanking BLUE gear item available. I farmed Mushroom people rep! And the actually MUSHROOMS! - to get the Spore shield. I spent hours in LFM for Elite 5 quests that dps'ers NEVER want to do get rep and tanking gear. I graciously bowed out of kara runs for more geared guild tanks. I sat outside of kara for the opptunity to do the chess event, without spaming guild chat, in case one of the dps would be so kind to drop group, so I get a chance to roll on KD or the battlescar boots. I took up the cost of respec'ing every week to do and learn arena, because SOME OF THE BEST TANKING GEAR IS IN ARENA, (outside of a raid) I got ganked non-stop while in proc spec farming engineering BOP recipes so I could move my engineer up 5 points closer so I make the goggles, tank gun, the goblin rocket launcher. I pugged BM for 2 weeks BM?!!! I hate BM. To get my last key frag to kara with frost mages, stun lock rogues and improve rend MS warriors and other cast offs from non-raiding guilds because I had to get it done. I farmed Revered rep to get Heroic Keys. I got trapped in "Kara/Gruul Guilds" who couldn't progress past it. And now you want to send back and help some Night Elf hunter.... your brother's Warlock... your buddy's shadow step alt rogue... in their PVP purples, who soloed their way up to 70, who have never been group, who can't be bother to do attunement for kara because they can spam "open door" now? So they can sit back and spam 2 buttons, and pst me to "hurry up" while marking, while I (and the healer) do all the work? Are you nuts?

That is precisely why there's 13 pages of radiating anger, off people having been there & done it. Long but...

[Unger]

There is no denying that getting where we are now was hard. Probably a lot harder than it is for the people coming up now, whether its due to a guild that helps out, Blizzard nerfing the crap out of events or the 8 million pages of internet data that is out there to shortcut people. I hear what all of you are saying.... and I am not suggesting that you allow people to take advantage of you. You're in control...., you decide who you help and who you don't help. One thing you rarely had to do in 5 mans was pug a tank..... because YOU were the tank.

As tough as it is to get healers, PUGing tanks is downright scary. For every tank that is in BT downing Illidan, there are 1,000 guys out there that think they can tank two handed or don't even understand the mechanics of their class.

All I am saying is that there is another side to 5 mans. There has got to be some place in your hearts where you fell in love with tanking. Where taking the lives of your group in your hands on a pull by pull basis was thrilling....

Maybe the answer is to set up some rules..... here's what we will do.... here's what we won't do. The previous poster said he did most of it solo.... I dont know about that. Most of the pre-Kara gear required instances, group quests or rep (that required a lot of instances). Ok, so some of us did it the hard way.... we walked to school.... up hill.... both ways.... in the snow.... without shoes.

To address the original posters question.... help the tanks help you. Pay their repair bills... have the noobies grind and donate primals or whatever you need.... Let the tanks pay their debt to the guild in group quests, instances (of whatever makeup) or whatever you need. Let the tanks build fury sets when things drop that nobody needs for main spec.... and be respectful. Tanks are defenders. We make sure that nobody gets hurt (or at least not a lot!) while we are escorting the team through an event. Its the most noble and least rewarding role. If the mount from Kael drops..... give it to the tank.... same with Attumen.

Good luck with your tanks. Hopefully, they don't feel as taken advantaged as a lot of the guys in this forum!

[Krashtork]

Tanks are not that hard to PuG. My main used to be a mage, and only every so often would i have issues with tank pugging. It's all about knowing the right people and being nice to them.

Hell, if i was having that much trouble i'd pay for em to come help. If you really do NEED an istance SOooo bad, you should have no trouble laying down 50g for a good tank. :P

[Joacimcans]

Sorry if this is considered a dead thread but i just recently joined and i would like to offer my side to this topic. My main is a horde Protection Paladin in a 5/5 and 9/9 Guild. I have tanked every 5 man on both normal and heroic probably enough to be exalted with every faction by about 3 times over. While on a paladin 5 mans are pretty mindnumbing when you out gear them just a bit more downtime due to having to drink after 2 pulls because you literally tanked the entire pull without need a a single heal, it wasnt that bad. I did eventually tire of it tho so i did the unthinkable..............I rolled a protection warrior, and OMG i honestly swear people are getting dumber and dumber that are beinging to play this game while i solo leveled up until 60, at 60 i specced protection and started running instances thinking ohh hey this wont be too bad and I was rudely awakened while i was by no means the perfect prot warrior when i started but i was decent enough that i could tank instances with little or no CC needed but I think most people here would be shocked at how bad the player base is pre 70. I could always see if someone was an alt or a reroll because my omen would actually show someone other than me and 90% of those people were really good at their class so leveling 60-70 was filled with alot of bad pugged instances but i stuck through it knowing that some of the people were just really new and didnt honestly know any better.

At 70 however I learned that all of the tanking i did on my paladin while it made me look like a great and NICE guy it didn't entitle me to anything. By this i mean all of the people's mains and alts that i had helped gear up suddenly had NO desire to help me gear up MY ALT so i ended up having to pug even more groups to get my reputations and get the badges i needed to get good tanking gear on my alt. The only good thing that has come from doing so many pugs and getting exalted in every faction on two tanks is i now have a friends list full of people who actually enjoy healing/dpsing that i met through pugs, and i have found out that people like to do things that help themselves and if you need something you can just go pug it.

So fair warning to all of you people that posted you tank every instance for anyone who wants to go. I have lived that life and you have to realise that tanking is basically a one way street after the people get what they want they will throw you to the side and go pvp or circle shatt even if you still need something you will have to hassel them to no end to get what you need or you might even have to just find a whole new person for the group. An example of this was when i MGT first came out I tanked heroic MGT almost every single day trying to get my commendation and i noticed a really not subtle pattern whenever a dps/healer got thier trinket off the 3rd boss all of the sudden the next day they didnt feel like it or they were busy or they were tired and need to go to bed.

[LittleMan]

Here's my take on the issue.

Having hopped from one dead end guild to another I have spent tons of time giving of my time to guildmates across several guilds.
I have farmed pot/flask/elixir mats and sold them for 50% of lowest Ah price.. I have done the same with food buff mats. I have given away pots, elixirs, flasks and food before raids. I have tanked heroics and kara badge runs for people when they were nearing a certain badge item or needed a purple gem. I have maintained 100% attendance record with most of them. I have offered advice, opinions when asked for them, friendship and respect for my fellow guildmates, many whom moved on after only a short period of time after recieving gear or having a negative raiding experience. I have taken a verbal ass kicking over mistakes and miscommunication but rarely even went as far as scolding fellow raid members for playing wrecklessly and making my job harder.

What have I got back? Out of all the guilds I have been in since 70 I have contact with less then a handful of people. Why? Because as someone described in an earlier post, I was the hero when I was in the guild but when I left I was suddenly the most unloyal traitor they had ever seen. Rumors spread about me as to why I left that were completely false.

That part is the one thing that stings me most. The lack of appreciation. being used, having my kindness taken advantage of, and then to top it off by lableing me unloyal after I slaved for guildmates while neglecting my own "chores". After showing up day in and day out for wipe fests on progressive boss fights while other tanks convienantly chose not to log in on progressive boss night.. Unloyal? yeah it still stings alot I guess.

On the flip side I have gained some from it too. I have got thick skinned and I am slowly but surely learning to say no. After all how bad does it look when they come to raid with all their consumables but I'm missing a particular item I need for a certain fight all because I neglected my own farming to help a few other people out? Bad bad bad..Makes me look like shit and feel even worse then I look.

I don't mind helping guildmates and friends out and I'll always place guildmates before friends unless it's something that doesnt help/improve their raiding performance.

It's just got to the point where in most cases it is more of a job.
I'll break my back to help someone be more sucessful and all I ask in return is a little appreciation and respect.. And not the kind that is suddenly thrown out the window when I explain why I just gquit and unwilling to accept the reinvite, or can't tank this or that, or wont have their mana pot mats farmed in time for the next raid.

And while I'm tanking these heroics for you try to make things a little easier for me too if you can.. Wait for me to pull don't just pull a leroy and expect me to rush in and try to save you because its amusing. Or run around trying to solo mobs because you obviously out gear the instance, only to end up dead leaving your mob to chase down the healer and one shot them...and me feeling sick at my stomach over the event.

It's not the 5 man burn out that I'm suffering most from, it's the lack of appreciation, being taken for granted and being used that has put a damper on my desire to be as helpful as I have been in the past.


If you want your guild tanks to give more to the guild then the guild needs to give more to them.
I'm not saying put them on a sallary or anything, but little respect, praise, appreciation and understanding can go a long ways.

The statement you made about the guildnote that was asking that tanks do a couple heroics a day with guildies seemed more of a demand.
I personally would find it insulting and would likely log right back out.

[orcstar]

Littleman, if I read your post, you'ved gone above and beyond what's to be reasonably expected.

Sometimes when a new guy entered our guild he would farm like mad, hand out tons of elixirs and potions to other guildies. I was always quick to stop that.

If people want to raid they should make their best effort, providing their own pots foods elixirs. Because in the end, if you give it to them, more then recognition you create lazy players who take the things for granted.

[Juon]

To steer the argument away from being one sided :

I believe for some of us, it is the quality of the 5 man.

After a raid, tanks are often the most exhausted. I have played HPriest/SPriest/Hunter/RestoShaman/DPSShaman and playing a war tank really drains.

I really cannot stress this enough.

However, if the usual gang I know and trust ask me to tank for anything,at anytime (provided I do not pull wife aggro) I would most heartily. That is because I know that they wil be focused for the next 30-50 minutes it take for the heroic.

Alas, this is not so for most guildies and PUGs.Without a wipe, I can keep my concentration up for hours. Once a stupid wipe sets in, the entirety of the raid weariness, day of work at the office, frustration against stupidity all sets in at once like a tsunami during the run back from GY. A H UB can take 30 mins to 2hours.

I am pretty sure we will all still run Heroics and Kara, but only with people we know who can keep their eyes on the screen. I am not implying that the grp must be leet skillz, I dont mind bringing alts in greens. But it is the level of focus and dedication. It is really, really immensely frustrating to be the only one focused and carrying the 5man when it is THEY who needs the run in the first place. Babysit AND feed? We signed up to serve and rock the world.

Not babysitting ingrates who dont appreciate the fact that we are putting hefty repair bills and time better spent for farming consumables to help them gear up. Too many guildies and pugs feel that once you are the group leader, it is a choo-choo loot train where they can sit back and relax.

An enthusiastic newcomer decked in greens with the right dedication and focus will no doubt move ANY of the tanks here on this forums to help him.

Healers and dps normally do not feel the exhaustion as much as tanks, therefore more inclined to form pugs/grps without much thought. Once I was in a H SH grp with 2 warlocks and 1 rouge.... very intense multimob as the warlocks start bursting their SoC the moment they hear the khorium destroyer fire a shot....and finally we wiped when they decided the best way to run the gaunlet is by SoCing the newest wave before they reach the tank and ignoring the ones the tank already have aggro on .....

2 cents.

[LittleMan]

Source: orcstar Littleman, if I read your post, you'ved gone above and beyond what's to be reasonably expected. Sometimes when a new guy entered our guild he would farm like mad, hand out tons of elixirs and potions to other guildies. I was always quick to stop that. If people want to raid they should make their best effort, providing their own pots foods elixirs. Because in the end, if you give it to them, more then recognition you create lazy players who take the things for granted.

I agree completely that it can create lazy players. I can see both sides of the argument.

I guess I kinda see it as most of the people I play with dont have near the amount of game time I have due to real life responsibilites. I on the other hand am confined to bed for the most part so all I have is time. I feel That if I can help out guidlies who have very limited time then it may go a long ways to preventing them showing up without proper consumables and maybe even eventually leaving due to just not having the time to put into it. Thus being helpful to my guild as a whole. Does that make sense?

Now I know I can only carry so much weight in an attempt to help my guildies before it starts wearing me down. That has been my biggest problem. During times I am physical worn out I find it hard to say "you know what I just can't do it for ya this week I'm really worn out" without feeling bad about it.

I don't do that stuff nearly as much these days but will help guildies who are in a pinch when asked. I will still farm mats and sell them to them for 50% of what its going for on ah. I have found that it has helped deter the people who were taking advantage of my kindness.. And usually the lazy people don't have the gold to cover repairs much less mats.

I accept I can only do so much for people whether they make the effort to help themselves or not.

I guess theres a fine line between helping people out and enabling them. Makes it really hard to know who to help and who not to or whether I should help anyone at all. Either way I generally still give people the benefit of the doubt and try to be helpful in every way I can, until given a reason not to.

[Jasra]

Source: LittleMan I guess theres a fine line between helping people out and enabling them. Makes it really hard to know who to help and who not to or whether I should help anyone at all. Either way I generally still give people the benefit of the doubt and try to be helpful in every way I can, until given a reason not to.

I'm glad you see that - it's not just a fine line, but it's a very fuzzy one too. It's important to remember that most (if not all) of your guildies will put their interests first. That doesn't work as well for a tank, but if you sacrifice too much of yourself along the way, sooner or later you'll get reminded that people mostly play for their own benefit. Bitter disappointment will follow.

Treat your guild with tremendous respect and courtesy, but don't let your volunteerism ever get far away from your personal fun.

[Oneiroi]

And while I'm tanking these heroics for you try to make things a little easier for me too if you can.. Wait for me to pull don't just pull a leroy and expect me to rush in and try to save you because its amusing. Or run around trying to solo mobs because you obviously out gear the instance, only to end up dead leaving your mob to chase down the healer and one shot them...and me feeling sick at my stomach over the event.

Like the Shaman i had which told me to be quiet after i told him to watch his omen. He went like shut up nothing happend i can solo that mob.
Such things make Puging a Pain in the Ass

[kolben]

People are the main factor for me, and they determine whether I'll want to tank for them again through their actions. There are several people in my guild I won't tank groups for, they make simple things hard and are quitters; two out of three for my criteria to turn down requests for my tanking services. Players have to own up to the fact that they created the problem by being asshats of one flavor or another. Four tanking classes won't fix that.

[Stephanius]

I have a cunning plan that solves the problem discussed in this thread in a neat way: Make a tank alt!

With four tank classes, there is some choice. I already have 2 tank alts and will make a DK when I get around to it. That gives considerable choice between characters at the appropriate level for whatever is on the menu.

When someone then tries to draft your raid geared tank into 5-man 101 you wont be unwilling to go, you just want to go on a char that is appropriate! That may be a nasty shock to people who do want to get carried, but should not at all pertube those that want to do their part, but are a tank short.

[Krashtork]

Sounds like a good idea, but it's the levels 1-70 that make this something I probably wont do.

[Saturday]

I have a prot paladin, two prot warriors and another prot warrior on the way (along with a DK probably).

It isn't a solution. You end up having to do the same heroics, end up wanting and constantly not getting the same drops while constantly wondering why other people can't level their own damn tank and healing alts.

The only reason I have gone through the warriors I have is that I get a real thrill from the levelling of them and going through the lower-level instances where the gear really means jacksquat in the overall scheme of things. Most of the people you group with do it for the quests or because they really like the instances which is a nice change from the level 70 "Do whatever grants the most charity badges or gear".

A few members of my guild recently left because myself and the main healer both brought up this issue of people wanting hand-me-downs without working for them. People wanting to attend ZA at 68, people wanting to do Kara in full greens that weren't even suited for their role. Neither of us has had the luxury of playing an alt in a raid, even ZA and Kara, and despite a fairly rational argument against it, people are quick to think these things are "owed" to them for whatever godknown reason and throw a tantrum when they don't get it.

[Petninja]

Source: sammich The OP and anyone here who agrees with him are just idiot mooches that shouldn't be in guilds in the first place.

While I may not agree with the OP of the thread, Tankspot is not the place for comments like this. I left the Elitist Jerks forums because a lot of them were just that... Elitist Jerks. Inflammatory comments of this nature do not improve a forum in any way.

Personally I try to help people out with their instances if I can. Sometimes I'm not up to it. If I'm not feeling like it I'd sooner log off than have people grumbling that I'd rather PvP or play an alt than help my guild. My last guild has an age requirement and a no drama policy, and it did a lot to alleviate the problem.

PS: I'm pretty sure I just posted on a dead thread. Is that like grave robbing?