[Daavos]

Source: bosephus Both of those fights test the situational awareness of each member of your raid. If you have people that are consistently missing their assignment or dying, consider finding a replacement if they can't be coached to correct their issues.

I believe this is our problem. There's always 5 people in the raid who are in lal-la land. We've removed a number of members for this continuious reason, but we always seem to have 3 or 4 dps players in the raid that try to coast through the raid. I think we've all seen these players in pug groups.

Idk what to do, it's so discouraging. I feel sometimes if I had spent the last month and half just pugging 1 heroic instance a night I would have progressed my character further in badage gear by now.

Thanks for the tips on the encounters.

[Shorty]

A couple of questions/things to think about: (in no particular order)

- How easy are the Gruul kills - people manage to stay out of shatters etc?
- Mag is worth a look, he's significantly easier after 2.4 and only requires 5 people with working brains and a lock or two for the adds.
- 5-6 healers, sounds a little low. We usually run with 7, but depending on what's killing you this may not be the problem
- What's your number's turn-over for raid nights. ie. if you raid monday and tuesday - what percentage of the raid is common across both nights. All the fights mentioned do take a bit of getting used to (at least for the normal mortal) and if your turnover is high that might be adding to the problem. I'd suggest focusing on lurker or maggy (add mag onto your gruul night) as they are both trash-lighter/easier than VR (imo).
- How often does your guild clear kara and how long does the average clear take? You want to be breezing through in 3-4hours with very little problems.

[loquatious]

Anyone caught in a spout after 1 night of practice should be asked to sit out of situational awareness fights, they "stand in the fire".

Frankly they are just crappy players and Ideally you should ease them out of raiding or the guild.

VR Orbs have gotten devilishly tricky, the next patch is going to bring some relief.

[Daavos]

- How easy are the Gruul kills - people manage to stay out of shatters etc?

Before we kick a bunch of members it was hit and miss. Last time we did we one shoted it. But at the same time I was ahead in dps over one of the mages and a hunter. It's taking too long in my opinon. I beleive were getting him by grow 12 and 15 depending the make up of the raid.

Sadly, I don't think they try to avoid shatter by running out.

[i]- Mag is worth a look, he's significantly easier after 2.4 and only requires 5 people with working brains and a lock or two for the adds.[i]

This is hit and miss when us too. The last time i was MTing him we got him down 10% and I died. The first time I got stun by the cave in (?) and hit by mag with no Shield Block up.

The second time we got to 8% and I took 3 hits without a heal inbetween and died. It went 5000 (Blocked XXX damage), 6000 (blocked xxx damage ), Shield Block fades, Crushed for 10,000. It happened so fast, I didn't react in time with pots, health stones, etc (I had already poped Shield wall on the previous try and I had used last stand earlier in the fight). Then Raid leader Druid wanted to try and tank. We wipe right off the bat to due to poor healing and the second attempt one the of the clicker's missed a click.
During both my tanking I kept thinking this is taking way to long.



What's your number's turn-over for raid nights. ie. if you raid monday and tuesday - what percentage of the raid is common across both nights. All the fights mentioned do take a bit of getting used to (at least for the normal mortal) and if your turnover is high that might be adding to the problem. I'd suggest focusing on lurker or maggy (add mag onto your gruul night) as they are both trash-lighter/easier than VR (imo).

Our "core" member show up every raid. But sometimes we have to pug people in. I think we have a low turn out for raids. Everyone is sick of wiping.


- How often does your guild clear kara and how long does the average clear take? You want to be breezing through in 3-4hours with very little problems.

3-4 hours. We do it on Non-raiding nights or half of kara after a raid.

[Shorty]

Gruul doesn't sound too bad, we were at 15 when we started, but I guess you want to be nearer 12/13 after a few tries. You definitely don't want to be doing more dps than the dps as a warrior tank.

Unfortunately, it sounds as if you need to do some active recruitment to fill a few dps and healer slots. A couple of good people can encourage the others to pull their socks up. Depending on server, population etc this is not always the easiest thing to achieve however.

I would set your dps some benchmarks (even in kara) but definitely in gruul. If the officer-core is serious about raiding, get together run through your members gear, spec, enchant, consumable use and see where they can improve. You can always start by stating what gear/changes you know you need. You could even set minimum +damage and +heal amounts. Maybe state you are taking 2 weeks off raiding to focus on heroics/kara and gear up, while at the same time trying to recruit some members.

This ofc all depends on your desire to stay with the guild. I think there are very few people who would blame you for leaving given the current situation, but it depends if you think some key changes to officers/raiding ethos/guild attitude will make a big difference.

We're always here for advice and let us know how it goes

[Danach]

For lurker, as has already been stated the adds always appear in the same place. One thing that is very important here though is that no one is healing until a tank establishes threat on the guardians. In our earlier attempts on lurker this was the #1 thing that was wiping us, as the guardian was teleporting to the healers before a tank could even get a hit off on them.

When we were having similar problems we started to use Gruul as our benchmark fight. If people wanted to continue on into T5 content they had to be able to do 650 dps on Gruul. While the number is fairly low, it ended up giving people a definable goal to work towards.

[Taiglin]

Is anyone posting WWS logs of the fight? They have to extend their combat logging range but then is just a matter of turning the combat log on and off after the night. Use that to really see what is going on. Post the link on your guild boards and then tell people to review them. There are few greater motivators to DPSers than seeing how badly they suck compared to other members of their same class who blow them away. If needed take those logs and try to solicit feedback from class specific sites. A great many things can become apparent using that tool.

Hell just last night I looked at our SSC log for the night and saw a hunter who I hadn't raid with yet. He was basically using just autoshot. To say that his damage output sucked would be a vast understatement. Those sorts of things though are apparent in the game usually - especially if that person isn't the type to look outside the game for community sites. No the official forums don't count.

[Chuunks]

It sounds like you are at the point my guild was when first starting out on 25 man content.

You are forced to take *everyone* so there's little incentive for someone to be better than his neighbor. "Why bother to enchant or gem right, gonna get to roll on some phat lewt soon!" People happy to have their weight carried ...

Two suggestions I have, which have already been mentioned, but they help us:
-- post WWS in a public spot, and point out the people who are sucking the life out of your raid. (Keep in mind that some fights, utility > DPS -- so use WWS correctly.)

-- open up recruitment in a very obvious and public way. Nothing is a bigger motivator than people thinking you're going to move their cheese.

[Lunestone]

Source: klor Bad Hbombs bad! You dont want to leave a guild with a sour note. Talk to the guild leaders/raid leader. Try to work out the problems with the guild and if they don't then explain to them why you're leaving. Maybe it will save them the trouble in the future.... or not. Atleast you wont get a bad rep going to another guild.

It's not always possible to leave a guild without bad feelings though... I was a guild from September 07 to March 08... I stayed for a few months of decreasing participation, tried to warn them repeatedly that we needed to recruit... needed to be more on top of things but eventually I got tired of trying to push everyone. I just decided they weren't as interested in progressing like they used to be and made the hard decision to move on.

When I left, things were actually pretty cool... those that were on were pretty nice about it and a lot wished me luck, so I thought it ended well. Within a few hours though, rumors started flying... people were saying I just left without a word that I didn't care about the guild - even though I was the one pushing to make sure signups were posted in a timely manner, that strats were posted, etc.

Come to now, I LOVE my new guild... it was totally the right decision, after many months of disorganization in moving thru SSC/TK, i'm in a guild that has cleared SSC and we're pushing Kael now. It's hard in some ways because i'm the "new tank" and have to be a bit humble learning fights that they have down - plus being behind on dkp. But i've seen all the bosses but Kael now and got my first tier 5 the other day In my first week I got three or four pieces of gear and few others along the way.... But I have to say just being able to see all the fights has been awesome Plus we'll prob go to MH soon DD

[lorelye]

How long it takes to farm these, depends on guild management and recruiting. When I started my guild, we 1-shot Maulgar, Gruul & Mag on the first night - 2.5 hours total. We cleared 5/6 SSC in the first week.

But ... I recruited players who had gone out and farmed every piece of gear they could get on their own. It is a requirement for raiding in our guild, that they've farmed all those pesky badges, leveled tailoring or whatever they needed, to achieve the best they could, on their own.

Guilds that wipe on Gruul are generally filled with players who expect their gear to come from drops off bosses. If you can change their thinking on this point, maybe they have a chance. If not, gear yourself out, the best you can, and start guild shopping.