[Ciderhelm]

Source: Slobash And at the moment it seems like we're losing some tanking perks and gaining pvp viability and people aren't happy.

What on earth are you losing for PVP viability?

You're making two distinct statements, I hope.

1. We're losing some tanking perks.

2. We're gaining PVP viability.

Unless you're suggesting that we're losing tanking perks because we're gaining PVP viability, which I've seen no indication is the case, the argument is dead in the water. Being effective in PVP does not remotely suggest being less effective in tanking.

[Worldie]

Source: Ciderhelm Let me be more blunt. Playing a class where the sole duty is to act as glorified CC is a horrible, annoying approach. Fortunately, that's not at all the direction Prot is going at the moment in WotLK.

Because isn't that what DPS warriors are now in arena, first CC target since they are too dangerous to be left alive and if you focus them you just give them rage to DPS?

Personally, i'd quite love to be a living CC in PvP. Fat numbers have never been of my interest.

[Ciderhelm]

Source: Worldie Because isn't that what DPS warriors are now in arena, first CC target since they are too dangerous to be left alive and if you focus them you just give them rage to DPS? Personally, i'd quite love to be a living CC in PvP. Fat numbers have never been of my interest.

So explain how that Arms Warrior is going to feel in Arena with a class dedicated solely to keeping them stunned, interrupted, snared, and otherwise unable to accomplish their goal?

No big numbers for the class going after him, no big numbers for him either. You've essentially created a PVP class dedicated to ruining the enjoyment of another player. Excessive CC has never been fun.

[Worldie]

It's true but it's the price to pay to be a class dangerous in PvP, very frequent "beeeh" or "oink".

[Ciderhelm]

Source: Worldie It's true but it's the price to pay to be a class dangerous in PvP, very frequent "beeeh" or "oink".

That can be dispelled.

I've heard no end of 2000+ rated teams on vent getting bitterly angry with each other over not clearing a CC off one of the teammates fast enough. Excessive CC is just not fun.

As it stands, the best I can say is, Protection PVP isn't going in that direction, so it's not something I'd want to have a debate over. We're getting virtually everything we were looking for in terms of Shield Slam, including a healthy Crit percentage, and we're getting a conal stun and great mobility on top of it. That is exactly what many of us who are genuinely interested in Prot PVP have been asking for.

[Bonerot]

Source: Ciderhelm I dropped my comments in there as Syli.

Omg, A Deathnight posting in a warrior thread. You are of course free to do what you want but I think posting as Ciderhelm/warrior would be more likely to be listened to by the devs. The same as any forum I read you quickly pick up people who have good points or good information and you weigh them based on who's saying them as a kind of filter. It's entirely possible GC is a registered user here though and happened to read this post and now knows who you are anyway though given their interest in tanking

[Ciderhelm]

Source: Bonerot Omg, A Deathnight posting in a warrior thread. You are of course free to do what you want but I think posting as Ciderhelm/warrior would be more likely to be listened to by the devs. The same as any forum I read you quickly pick up people who have good points or good information and you weigh them based on who's saying them as a kind of filter. It's entirely possible GC is a registered user here though and happened to read this post and now knows who you are anyway though given their interest in tanking

Syli has a tail, and that alone makes her a more valuable voice.

[Joanadark]

Excessive CC is just not fun.

I actually disagree with you completely cider, on a number of levels.

CC and interference produce almost 100% of the challenges and skill-tests that exist in PvP. They are what make the game interesting, exciting, and DIFFICULT.

I challenge you to explain to me how simply running up to each other, triggering your abilities, and seeing who's lucky dice happened to grant them a crit or a proc first to win completely arbitrarily is somehow more fun, or even fun at all.

There is absolutely nothing interesting in PvP based on damage alone. There is no room for skill, cooperation, teamwork, situational awareness, communication, or good judgement.
It is simply who has more of their PvP set than the other guy, and pressing your buttons in the right order and praying for big money.

[Joanadark]

That said, dealing damage, particularly selective, controllable damage, is part of it too, and every class should have some ability to accomplish it in their arsenal, or else all the clever manuevering and manipulating and feinting and countering has nothing to lead up to and is ultimately a futile endeavor because you have no punch to ever deliver.
This is why prot currently has no purpose in PvP whatsoever, and so it makes sense why this would be the element that is being worked on for them.

Does that negate the primary importance of what would continue to be their main value in PvP? Not at all.

[Ciderhelm]

Source: Joanadark I actually disagree with you completely cider, on a number of levels. CC and interference produce almost 100% of the challenges and skill-tests that exist in PvP. They are what make the game interesting, exciting, and DIFFICULT. I challenge you to explain to me how simply running up to each other, triggering your abilities, and seeing who's lucky dice happened to grant them a crit or a proc first to win completely arbitrarily is somehow more fun, or even fun at all. There is absolutely nothing interesting in PvP based on damage alone. There is no room for skill, cooperation, teamwork, situational awareness, communication, or good judgement. It is simply who has more of their PvP set than the other guy, and pressing your buttons in the right order and praying for big money.

You're missing the word "excessive."

CC itself is fine, but what happens when you throw a class that is balanced purely around it into arenas? (assuming it's getting substantially more CC than Druids, for instance, as a result of being ineffective at both healing and DPS)

Now imagine you get two of those players on one team. If the class were actually balanced against their weaknesses, it would be just as annoying as two double-Paladin teams going at it.

Excessive CC's is not what teams are currently running, it's what teams would be running if you introduced pure CC classes.

[bosephus]

Source: Slobash titans is now the 51 pt talent in fury FYI.....

Yes, I know. It's also reachable with keeping 20 points in Protection. I'm suggesting that I'd like to see what a 0/51/20 build would do for threat production. I'd also be interested to see what a 10/41/20 build would be like tanking. What I'm noticing is that the deep protection talents improve Shield Slam's crit and Shield Slam efficiency. Fury has pretty good damage potential and offtank viability while most of the mitigation talents are still with reach in Protection. Even spec'd 51 points into Fury, you still get Revenge, Shield Slam, and Sunder Armor out of Protection. Plus you get scaling AP with Rampage and lots of damage talents. You don't have to worry about Defiance, since it's baked into the stance.

I would like to know whether it's really worth reaching deep into Protection anymore.

[Norrath]

Rampage doesn't give AP anymore.

[bosephus]

Source: Norrath Rampage doesn't give AP anymore.

Doh!

[Wars]

Cider I do see your point in the "Protection vs Tank" department. If we can become more than just "tanks" in the traditional sense I am all for it.

With all the people on this board we will not all have the same motivations for being a tank, nor even rolling a warrior! We can all agree that we like what we do, we all want to do it better and with more options with less downfalls.

With wrath, it looks like we are getting things that will be great with tanking, both 5mans, and in raids(3,000dmg redux for 10 seconds per block is pretty fucking badass). Also things that will up our dps so that we can be the tps monsters we have always been.

If there are a few things sprinkled in that can help us grind/pvp then sure ,that's great as well. These things do not look like they will hurt our traditional role of being a tank, but make is better within the sense of being a Protection War, and not just the traditional meat shield.

[Minaba]

With the devs striving to reach a point where any tank can succeed at any encounter, I still think prot warrs need at least one big reason in a utility sense to be included in the raid.
I'm struggling to see this atm because we bring nothing else but tanking and our warrior utility has been doled out to other classes who still retain their own special raid utility.
It's been a one way street!
A prot warrior's uniqueness now virtually comes down to Spell Reflect and I can't see that skill as something raid design will demand or its a fail on their tank equality goal.
The other tank classes still bring many desireable things that remain theirs alone.
Without a utility skill that benifits the raid that is all ours, we indeed become less disreable.

Source: Wars With wrath, it looks like we are getting things that will be great with tanking, both 5mans, and in raids(3,000dmg redux for 10 seconds per block is pretty fucking badass). Also things that will up our dps so that we can be the tps monsters we have always been.

I'm looking forward to trying the new Shield Block on a Brutallus Stomp when the talents go live prior to LK releasing

[Satrina]

Blizzard is well aware of our issues - I am sure we'll see some things come down the pipe in the coming patches. I'm waiting to see what they do give us before I comment at length.

[Hypatia]

Just so long as they know that the pressure is still on from respected voices in the warrior community. Wouldn't want them to say "Okay, it's done--all the people complaining are the usual ranters."

[Interruption]

I'm disheartened with the prot changes as well. What annoys me most is some of the initial statements saying they were essentially keeping that design and those style of talents regardless, just tweaking the numbers some. That's just being closed minded and ignoring the fact that several of them are very poorly designed. I also support the idea of having a play style associated with a tree, not just a weapon choice. This doesn't mean they need to be limiting, but that they need to have some distinction and substance beyond different talent names and weapon choices. There's some DK clamoring for that in the thread and I know I definetly won't be picking up WoTLK if they go they go that route.

Anyways in an effort to be more constructive than critical I made a my own prot tree earliar today http://www.war-tools.com/t57688.html .

Major changes:

Bloodbath: Replaces Shockwave, I'm under the impression currently that it's been removed from the game. If they add it back it'd obviously complicate things. But I feel an AE DoT is a better replacement for a 31 pt talent than Vigilance. Likewise the directional and stun aspects of Shockwave seem unnecessary and limiting to me. Damage number off for 80 I'm sure.

Annhilate: Basically a fail safe front loading attack. Great for threat wipes and providing an additional burst damage skill for PvP. Scaled to lvl 70ish damage on the calc though.

Rageaholic: Smooths out the effect of Sword and Board and makes it play into the "Enrage system" like Ghost was talking about. I don't know how the damage would pan out, but I don't think it's too outlandish to make Enrage Assault count block value towards it's damage if you're wielding a shield at this point.

Share the Wealth: Single target only. Stacks with similar effects, numbers probably off. Basically another synergy skill meant to compete with things like innervate, bres, LoH, etc.

Safeguard: DR buff removed so we don't end up being an intervene bot in PVE just for the buff. Extra charges added to help it play better with Vigilance.

Vigilance: Changed a bit, if it's improved it'll add another system for a tank to manage without being too overwhelming. Personally I'd keep it off the GCD as well. Charges are meant to be refreshed in PvP, might need some ironing out numbers wise. Dodge changed to magic/spell damage so it's more raid viable.

Top of the fury tree: Few minor changes here to make things more accesible in light of Buff/Debuff changes. It's my hope that they'll increase radius for Commanding and Battle Shout to 45 yards and increase the duration to 5 mins so it'll stay competitive given where tanks usually have to stand relative to the group in raids and to cope with phase/highly mobile encounters.

[Alent]

Source: Interruption Safeguard: DR buff removed so we don't end up being an intervene bot in PVE just for the buff. Extra charges added to help it play better with Vigilance.

... but... then it wouldn't do anything.

edit: NVM, didn't realize at first you were referring to your custom tree. I have serious issues with this tree, primarily due to the lack of subtlety in it's ideas. (I do have to admit I've had a few of them myself but have been carefully weighting them out before I post them. Particularly I like the idea of "share the wealth", but was going to suggest it as a base part of vigilance.)

[Turkson]

I've been laying off announcements and changes from the Beta. It's really too much stress and worry on things that literally change week in and week out. I think it might be important to keep an open mind about several of the changes that are going on right now.

I will say that I do approve of more dps and better PvP viability for tanks of all specs. But I'm going to wait and see how everything shakes out first.

PS - I wish I had a beta key, or someway to post on the Beta forums. The biggest complaint I have is that it appears Ghostcrawler only posts for damage control instead of preempting said outrage with a "This patch is for testing X and Y features."