[Senpuu]

From EJ, I'm seeing that it takes 4.918498039 defense rating to equal +1 defense skill. We're going to need +140 defense skill to gain uncrittability against boss mobs again.

So, 540 is the magic number pallies and warriors will be shooting for in the expansion. That will require 689 defense rating. Assuming you have +defense on all your gear except trinkets, weapon, and ranged, that's 13 slots from which to gain that 689. This comes out to roughly 53 rating per slot. Now look around at the droppable gear from lvl 80 instances and you'll note it isn't nearly that high on the majority.

At the moment I'm like 2 pieces shy of my end-game set on live (Felmyst has never dropped a shield, wtf) and at 80 I'd be crittable by level 80 mobs not to mention raid bosses.

My conclusion is that defense rating has scaled too harshly and needs to be cut back. Unlike all the rest of the rating stats, more than doubling the amount needed for the same return in going from 70 to 80 is severely hurting our ability to gear with any flexibility other than "find armor with highest +defense - wear it."

I have to believe that this has just been overlooked or that pallies and warriors are slated for some kind of -crit % talent that reduces the heavy requirement. I'd say that 689 rating points from your armor's ilevel is pretty steep.

*edited to include corrected numbers*

[Worldie]

There's like craptons of defense on the crafted sets. Enough to cap uncrittable

The lack of defense is probably the main reason for which we'll change T6. Currently in sunwell gear, i'm crittable at level 75.

[Senpuu]

Source: Worldie There's like craptons of defense on the crafted sets. Enough to cap uncrittable The lack of defense is probably the main reason for which we'll change T6. Currently in sunwell gear, i'm crittable at level 75.

There's a lot, no doubt. But look at it again. It's barely enough even in the massive amounts they gob onto it. Also, take note I am talking about dungeon drops that aren't itemizing for *only* str/sta/def. They aren't turning out well for uncrit. My concerns definitely stand.

[Minya]

back in the days hitting lvl 70 and geared up with some blues from quests and some from instances you already hat slight problems of getting uncrittable, too.

I think the defcap isn't a real a problem at lvl 80.

[Wars]

Math is a bad thing to suppose or make claims on if you don't have an actual idea of what the numbers are. We need to wait, we will see. Blizzard will fix this, they won't send us into lvl 80 raids ready to get crit.

[Senpuu]

Source: Minya back in the days hitting lvl 70 and geared up with some blues from quests and some from instances you already hat slight problems of getting uncrittable, too. I think the defcap isn't a real a problem at lvl 80.

I remember TBC coming out and easily hitting 490 def from normal instance drops. I'm looking at what heroic and normal drops have been found so far from WotLK and seeing a definite lack. Here's a list:

FORMAT - slot(rarity-instance difficulty-level to equip): defense rating
waist(b-n-80): 29
shield(p-r(10)-80): 34
shield(b-n-80): 38
shield(b-h-80): 31
boots(b-n-80): 34
shoulders(b-n-80): 29
cloak(b-h-80): 42
belt(b-n-80): 29
helm(b-n-80): 68
bracers(b-n-80): 27
chest(b-n-80): 44
neck(b-n-80): 25

There's a single item above the average 53 rating needed per item and that includes two heroic drops and one 10 man raid epic. Or do you feel that blacksmithed level 75-78 gear with nothing but str/stam/def should be > lvl 80 instance drops? And btw, the blacksmithed set doesn't take you there very easily either - there's actually only a few pieces that are over 53 average as well.

I feel that level 70 blue instance drops (especially heroic) should get you to uncrit for beginning raids. This doesn't seem to be the case atm from what we're seeing in beta, so I'm bringing it up.

[Worldie]

I'll stack defense gems in my T6

[Senpuu]

Source: Wars Math is a bad thing to suppose or make claims on if you don't have an actual idea of what the numbers are. We need to wait, we will see. Blizzard will fix this, they won't send us into lvl 80 raids ready to get crit.

erm... how don't I have an actual idea of what the numbers are? The numbers are all there if you want to look for them. Level 80 instance loot is dropping on the beta. In my most recent post I've listed the defense rating on all the tanking loot that drops in level 80 instances because there's apparently some disbelief over what I'm saying. It's there in black-and-white.

I'm not saying that things won't change between now and live (I would certainly hope they would), but that Blizzard has obviously designed this loot with the proper item level - you can do the calcs if you want to check their math - and it's inadequate for starting 10 man raiding with the current defense rating conversion. Unless the design intent is for us to use some resilience pieces for the larger boost / rating point to uncrit...

[Senpuu]

Source: Worldie I'll stack defense gems in my T6

I hope your threat will be okay as a paladin if you do that. I know as a warrior in my SWP / T6 I'm not going to have any decent threat and was planning on stacking +str to tune the set a bit. If I have to +def gem the whole set to make uncrit then my threat will be in the toilet given the warrior changes.

I'm still hoping they retune T6 / SWP gear to reflect the new dependence on strength with the 3.0 patch.

[Senpuu]

Just updated the numbers. The screenshots with rating buster were taken by someone who wasn't 80 obviously. The correct amount of defense rating per 1 point of defense skill is 5.59 at level 80, implying a required 783 defense rating for uncrit.

[Worldie]

I have no idea of how my threat will be.

Currently with T6 gear i have no problems holding aggro at 76, but i can't speak for raids yet...

[Naqada]

Well the +140 defense to be uncrittable at level 80 is nothing new. It was +140 at 70, and it was +140 at 60.

What is new is your claim of 5.59 DR = 1 Defense at 80. Considering it is 2.36 DR = 1 Defense at 70, and 1.5 DR = 1 Defense at 60.

That’s a 57% increase in required Defense Rating from 60 to 70, but a 137% increase from 70 to 80. If it was a 57% increase from 70 to 80, the DR number would be 3.71.

So I imagine the 5.59 number you are seeing is wrong. Perhaps you are looking at a tooltip error or an uncaught programming bug. Of interesting mathematical note is that 2.36 ^ 2 is 5.57, which seems more than coincidental.

[Shorty]

From a quick scan off mmo today:

helm - 36 def = 7.32
shoulders - 29 def = 5.90

== 4.915 ish

so 687ish for uncrit

but ofc this relies on mmo's information being correct rating values staying as is etc etc, but worth keeping an eye on I would say nonetheless.

[Sandmann]

60 70 80
Defense Skill 1.5 2.365385056 4.918498039
from Combat Ratings at level 80 - Elitist Jerks
iam also not so worried about the defence cap, it will be a little bit harder without the free defence but its not like it will be not reachable.

[Esillymidget]

Hmm, I wonder if they expect us to wear a little bit of resilience for early raids.

[Senpuu]

Source: Sandmann 60 70 80 Defense Skill 1.5 2.365385056 4.918498039 from Combat Ratings at level 80 - Elitist Jerks iam also not so worried about the defence cap, it will be a little bit harder without the free defence but its not like it will be not reachable.

It pretty much is if you want to use loot that drops from instances at 80. I've gone through wowhead and mmo-champion looking for loot. I posted only lvl 80 instance drops earlier and you can clearly see that they're generally insufficient. If you go through WotLK leveling up and collecting the highest +defense pieces while heading to 80 and then do all the instances for tank loot and then buy blacksmithed gear *and* have 2 good +defense trinkets then the numbers just barely add up. Keep in mind that the greater majority of the pieces you're now wearing after doing that are just str/stam/def pieces. You're using more lvl 77-79 pieces than 80 instances drops. You may have gotten nice pieces -- pieces you'd rather use so as to gain some expertise or hit -- but you'll be unable to without now taking crits.

I'm not speaking in the realm of the maybe here. I'm talking about how loot is right now in the beta. The crit cap is very barely reachable by stacking max +defense pieces and using both trinket slots. Okay, now you're uncrit and you head into 10man Naxx. A nice new piece of tank loot drops, but you can't wear it because, like the lvl 80 5-man drops before it, it's itemized with more stats than just +defense/str/stamina and you're losing too much +defense to stay uncrittable.

I'm trying to be cautious and will stand firm to my original point. Either the +def conversion needs to change or they need to give all plate wearers some -% chance to be crit folded into a talent (it would be bogus to have to spec that talent for only that). Unless we are happy with the prospect of wearing str/sta/def-only gear until like the 2nd tier of raiding (perhaps a bit sooner if we gem / enchant for +defense...) when more balanced stat distributions will contain enough defense to cover it? Personally, I wouldn't be.

Source: Esillymidget Hmm, I wonder if they expect us to wear a little bit of resilience for early raids.

I'm starting to think that's exactly what I'll be doing for early raiding.

*edited earlier posts to contain correct numbers per EJ (thanks Sandmann)*

[Optimoos]

I'm going to have to go with "Jumping the gun" on the feelings in this thread. Has every single piece of loot we will see in WotLK 80 dungeons and heroics been seeded in the beta? You're absolutely sure that you have every piece of information available to you to make the correct calculations?

My guess would be there is a lot more to come and we won't be able to know for sure what will and will not be available until the day Wrath goes live.

[Kazeyonoma]

They only recently opened up the level 80 raids and instances, i'm pretty sure they haven't implemented/fixed all if not much of the drops yet.

[Forklift]

Source: Kazeyonoma They only recently opened up the level 80 raids and instances, i'm pretty sure they haven't implemented/fixed all if not much of the drops yet.

I think this is pretty much the answer here.

[Wars]

See my comment on page 1 about math being dangerous.

The reason its dangerous is because while your math isn't problematic, the situation is, nothing is finished, basing math on things that aren't finished, is bad math and is dangerous as far as doomsaying goes.

Things will be fine, if they want us crittable, they want us crittable, if not, they don't. They will not balance the game one way and have it not turn out that specific way.